Fight during game

[TravelinMan]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I gotta say, in terms of critical thinking skills I'm doubting you got your money's worth in that IU degree. Hopefully it's not too late to get a refund.

Or maybe whatever you learned there has been forgotten.

Dan, what ARE you saying?

[IUgrad92]

Funny, Dan. Instead of clarifying what you've previously said, "I hope the kid learned his lesson", "The kid is a cheap shot artist"... which both I pretty much disagree with, you resort to personal attacks.

How do you know this kid is a cheap shot artist? What qualifies to be as such? One push in the back, two times, three?

Are you saying now that players should take it upon themselves to teach players from the other team a lesson if they feel justified??

Someone giving a shove to another player is something that we've all seen and dealt with more than once during a game. How may officials have had to deal with a player clothes-lining another player to the point of unconsciousness and then beat him on the back of his head while he's out cold on the court?? Huh, how many?? That kind of action/retaliation is way way way over the line. And all you can say Dan, is that hopefully the kid learned his lesson. Man, that sure takes a college degree to make that kind of statement.

This was not a 'fight', as that takes two people. I would guarantee that any NBA player that did this exact same thing would be fined thousands of dollars and suspended for a number of games. How do I know that? Because players have been suspended and fined for much less.

Dan, here's a hint. Stick to the facts, stick to your comments, defend them, whatever. Just don't resort to personal attacks. It doesn't make you look good, bro :-)

Chuck, Just wanted to let you know that I've scanned this post 5 times for mis-spellings and/or using a word in the wrong context. I didn't find any, so rest easy. It sure has got to be a burden to be you, to have made thousands of posts and to have never made a typo or mis-used a word. Keep the streak going!!! And second, this kid did not deserve to be taught a lesson in this fashion. That's what the officials and coaches are there for.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

This was not a 'fight', as that takes two people.

Are you saying that the Lawrence player didn't instigate that mess with that shove?

[BloggingRefGuy]

Let's grant everything--let's assume the kid who got pummeled did all kinds of terrible stuff--elbowing, name-calling, shoving, or worse. Let's assume the kid who did the pummeling did nothing in the lead-up.

Does ANYTHING justify four punches to the head of an unconscious person? Ever? Nobody who's coming to the defense of the attacker has answered that to my satisfaction.

Yes, we don't know started it. Yes, a more carefully-officiated game could have prevented this whole thing. But that's not what's at issue here. No matter who the instigator was (and I agree that we don't have enough information to tell), once you've got a defenseless unconscious kid on the ground, only a really, really dangerous human being would punch him four times. Anger management is in order...or maybe juvie. How does this attacker react if one of us accidentally cuts him off on the highway?

In spite of my earlier question to this effect, nobody has convinced me otherwise. It is not the cause of the attack that's disturbing here--it's the severity of it. In this conversation, that issue has been overlooked. So I'll put it back up at center focus:

Does anybody want to sugggest that repeated punches to the face of a prone, unconscious person are defensible or reasonable under any circumstances?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

1) Does ANYTHING justify four punches to the head of an unconscious person? Ever? Nobody who's coming to the defense of the attacker has answered that to my satisfaction.

2) Yes, we don't know started it. Yes, a more carefully-officiated game could have prevented this whole thing.

1) Well, I don't think most posters- including Dan_Ref- are really trying to justify anything. They're just saying that the Lawrence kid instigated this mess with his shove. The other kid retaliated to that instigation. Couldn't be clearer and simpler from the posted video imo.

2) Sorry, but also imo both of those statements are absolutely ridiculous. The only real evidence that we have is the video, unless you've got some other evidence that we aren't privy to. That video clearly shows the Lawrence kid starting the fracas with his push. Or are you saying that there wasn't a push? On your other statement, I'd also like to know how you know that the officials are partially to blame also. Did you see anything else but the video posted at the start of this thread? Were you at this game? Could you please give us some explicit examples of exactly where the officials failed to keep control of this game? I eagerly await your enlightment. Personally, I couldn't ever say anything like that because all I've seen is a few seconds of a video clip. Exactly how could they have officiated this game more carefully?

Prediction- you'll never see charges in this case unless both kids are charged. That was not an unprovoked attack. Note that certainly doesn't exonerate the Wichita kid; both kids are equally to blame imo. Trying to hold the Lawrence kid blameless though is just ridiculous.

Note- that's my opinion. Nobody is gonna answer anything to your satisfaction either obviously; your opinion is completely different. We're just gonna haveta disagree on this one.

[JRutledge]

Life is complicated. If you are looking for a simple solution for a complicated issue you are fooling yourself. The kid got hit repeatedly in the face and the kid that was getting hit probably started it to some extent. Does one action justify the other? I really do not think that is the point. The point is something got out of hand and it is an unfortunate issue. I was not there, so it is hard for me to say what the kid should have done or not done in that situation. I think so many times we want to come to a "one size fits all" solution or opinion on these kinds of issues.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

Yes, a more carefully-officiated game could have prevented this whole thing.

What do you base this expert opinion on?

[BayStateRef]

I feel that too many here have lost sight that this is a basketball game, played with officials, within a defined set of rules....which carry specific penalties.

If the official sees the first push and determines it intentional...the penalty is well prescribed by rule. We can expect players to get "upset" and push, elbow, shove, even grab. We do not -- and cannot -- expect players to grab someone around the neck, throw them to the ground and then pound them in the face with a fist. I am embarrassed that anyone here suggests in any way that is acceptable action on a basketball court, played in a game with officials.

So what if the Lawrence kid "started it" with a shove. The other player's actions are a disgrace and a crime.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Funny, Dan. Instead of clarifying what you've previously said, "I hope the kid learned his lesson", "The kid is a cheap shot artist"... which both I pretty much disagree with, you resort to personal attacks.

How do you know this kid is a cheap shot artist? What qualifies to be as such? One push in the back, two times, three?

Are you saying now that players should take it upon themselves to teach players from the other team a lesson if they feel justified??

Someone giving a shove to another player is something that we've all seen and dealt with more than once during a game. How may officials have had to deal with a player clothes-lining another player to the point of unconsciousness and then beat him on the back of his head while he's out cold on the court?? Huh, how many?? That kind of action/retaliation is way way way over the line. And all you can say Dan, is that hopefully the kid learned his lesson. Man, that sure takes a college degree to make that kind of statement.

This was not a 'fight', as that takes two people. I would guarantee that any NBA player that did this exact same thing would be fined thousands of dollars and suspended for a number of games. How do I know that? Because players have been suspended and fined for much less.

Dan, here's a hint. Stick to the facts, stick to your comments, defend them, whatever. Just don't resort to personal attacks. It doesn't make you look good, bro :-)

Here's a hint, bro - you're boring us.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only real evidence that we have is the video, unless you've got some other evidence that we aren't privy to. That video clearly shows the Lawrence kid starting the fracas with his push. Or are you saying that there wasn't a push?

I'm saying we don't know what happened in the entire game leading up to the one trip down the floor we saw. I agree--the only evidence we have is the video. I don't think this kind of thing happens as a result of one trip down the floor. It's certainly possible the attacker actually "instigated" the previous trip down the floor, or the one before that, or in the first quarter. You're right...we don't know. So we can't for sure say the Lawrence kid was the instigator without having been there...for the very reasons you give (there's evidence we're not privy to).

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

On your other statement, I'd also like to know how you know that the officials are partially to blame also. Did you see anything else but the video posted at the start of this thread? Were you at this game? Could you please give us some explicit examples of exactly where the officials failed to keep control of this game?

That's fair enough...I wasn't there. But think about a game you've officiated or seen where there has been a fight. (I've had one in my seven years.) It is the extreme exception for something like this to spring up out of the blue. In the game I officiated with a fight, I know there were things my partner and I could have done differently to prevent the swings from starting...in this game, it was ugly picks. If I call them, is there a fight? I doubt it. Maybe, though. Either way, I cannot wash my hands of my responsibility.

I wasn't at this game, but I'm willing to bet that it's a similar case, and if the officials are anything like me, I bet they feel awful about it. There's no way to prove it, as we agree, but I'd bet a C-note this fracas could have been prevented with tighter officiating earlier. At the very least, an official could have caught the Lawrence push, tooted the whistle repeatedly, and closed in before the Wichita kid has a chance to swing. I know...hindsight is 20/20.

It's not my intention to slam or attack the officials here, or anywhere, ever. (After all, there but for the grace of God go any of us...if we haven't been there already.) But I don't think it's an attack to observe that this situation likely could have been avoided...to try to learn from it.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was not an unprovoked attack. Note that certainly doesn't exonerate the Wichita kid; both kids are equally to blame imo. Trying to hold the Lawrence kid blameless though is just ridiculous.

I haven't done that. However...and this point keeps getting lost...punching an unconscious kid is four times never justified. I don't care what the kid did to bring on the first punch...when he's out cold, the fight ends. Anyone who punches an unconscious person in the face four times has serious problems. He may have had a push coming, or even a punch. But not once he's unconscious.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Note- that's my opinion. Nobody is gonna answer anything to your satisfaction either obviously; your opinion is completely different. We're just gonna haveta disagree on this one.

And we will. I appreciate your civility.

[rockyroad]

[QUOTE=BayStateRef] I am embarrassed that anyone here suggests in any way that is acceptable action on a basketball court, played in a game with officials.
QUOTE]

Uhmmm...just wondering who you think suggested it was "acceptable". Several have said that the Lawrence kid started it with the shove, but I didn't read anyone saying it was accdeptable...

Did the shove lead to the punches? Yes...Was the beatdown deserved - no. As someone else said, once the Lawrence kid was unconscious, the Wichita kid should have stopped. He didn't - and so if any charges are filed, that will be the deciding factor...and if no charges are filed, it will make for one heckuva civil case!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

1) I feel that too many here have lost sight that this is a basketball game, played with officials, within a defined set of rules....which carry specific penalties.

2) If the official sees the first push and determines it intentional...the penalty is well prescribed by rule.

3) I am embarrassed that anyone here suggests in any way that is acceptable action on a basketball court, played in a game with officials.

4) So what if the Lawrence kid "started it" with a shove. The other player's actions are a disgrace and a crime.

1) Yup, and it looks like you've forgotten that too and you're trying to impose your own penalties, with more severe action required on one player. Sorry, but that ain't our job. Any post-game action belongs to the league these kids played in and the prosecutor looking at the fight. All the officials do is decide the penalties for the fight that occurred, and afaik none of us are privy to what they actually called and their post-game report. I already stated what my call would be after looking at the video. What would you call as an official?

2) Yup, and I posted the rules. If it's a fight provoked by a push, both players should receive flagrant personal fouls for fighting. Any further action beyond that is the responsibility of the league and the police. Are you saying that the Lawrence player shouldn't receive that penalty?

3) Not one poster to date has said that the actions of the Wichita player were acceptable . Not one! If you think differently, please post an example.

4) "So what if the Lawrence player started it with a shove"?- Um, maybe because if the Lawrence player hadn't have started it with a shove, there might not have been a fight in the first place? Did you ever think of that? Sorry, but that statement is absolutely ridiculous imo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

I'm saying we don't know what happened in the entire game leading up to the one trip down the floor we saw. I agree--the only evidence we have is the video.

It's not my intention to slam or attack the officials here, or anywhere, ever.

Exactly.....that was my point......if you don't know all of the details, don't speculate. The officials in this game deserve the benefit of any doubt imo.

[BayStateRef]

The follow-up from the Wichita coach and the league:

The player has not played for Showtime since. Maples {Wichita coach] said he suspended him for two tournaments and that he is out of town for the summer.

Mid America Youth Basketball president Greg Raleigh suspended the player from MAYB tournaments and suspended the team for the remainder of the spring season, which ended May 7.

Full story: http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14892378.htm

[BayStateRef]

Here is a link with video that starts a few seconds earlier -- when the Lawrence team gets the ball after a turnover under the other team's basket.

http://www.kake.com/news/headlines/3221576.html