Fight during game

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

I haven't done that. However...and this point keeps getting lost...punching an unconscious kid is four times never justified. I don't care what the kid did to bring on the first punch...when he's out cold, the fight ends. Anyone who punches an unconscious person in the face four times has serious problems. He may have had a push coming, or even a punch. But not once he's unconscious.

We're beating up this kid pretty good for his unjustifiable behavior, about his serious problems, about how he needs anger management, about how he's capable of becoming a road rage menace (typical boogie-man bull**** intended to imply that any one of us could be his next victim) all because we assume he knew the kid was unconscious and continued beating him anyway. How sure are you that he knew? Have you interviewed the kid? Have you read the reports of those that did? Do you have anything more conclusive to go on than the "victim's" side of the story and that he looks unconscious in the video? The whole incident took, what? ... 5 seconds? During the entire fight was there ever a moment when the kid stopped swinging long enough to assess the state of his opponent? Given the adrenaline that would be flowing, is there any reasonable expectation that such a thought would even occur to him during this short time?

I'm hearing an awful lot of smugly self-assured, idealistic, all-inclusive and very judgemental statements about this kid from people who weren't there, don't know him, and have only seen about 10 seconds of video and heard one side of the story. One side of the story, I might add, that came from the guy who lost the fight, has an axe to grind, and whose role in the incident is suspect. I don't know why charges were never brought, but I'm going to have to assume that it's because the actual facts don't support it.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

During the entire fight was there ever a moment when the kid stopped swinging long enough to assess the state of his opponent? Given the adrenaline that would be flowing, is there any reasonable expectation that such a thought would even occur to him during this short time?

Reread that. You seem to think that under some circumstances--for instance, if your adrenaline is really cooking, or you haven't taken the time to figure out that your victim is unconscious because punching the kid so thoroughly and effectively--that it's acceptable or reasonable to whale on a kid you've already knocked out.

I disagree. And that's the way it's going to stay.

[TravelinMan]

Axe to grind, huh. Have you ever been assaulted or had a friend assaulted? Let's get one thing straight. The tape clearly shows that: (1) The Lawrence kid pushed the Wichita kid.(And I don't think the Lawrence kid pushed for no reason; the tape shows both players leaning on each other as they are coming up the court so it was more a case of "get off of me") (2) In response, the Wichita kid pummelled the Lawrence kid with unnecessary excessive force not letting up until the coaches pulled him off of the Lawrence player. One has to wonder what would have happened if the caoches had not intervened.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The follow-up from the Wichita coach and the league:

The player has not played for Showtime since. Maples {Wichita coach] said he suspended him for two tournaments and that he is out of town for the summer.

Mid America Youth Basketball president Greg Raleigh suspended the player from MAYB tournaments and suspended the team for the remainder of the spring season, which ended May 7.

Full story: http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14892378.htm

Thanks for the follow-up info. As usual, the story from the other side is just a little different:

"Coulter provoked the fight."

"He threw an elbow to my player's head and another to the back of his jaw. You see that if you watch the whole video and not just clips. He provoked it."

"He hit my guy first".

"I think I elbowed him in the chest when we were running down the floor, and he pushed me. So I pushed him back..."

"You know what I haven't heard yet? An apology from the other player. I've never heard him apologize for starting this."


One organization suspended their kid for his involvement in this incident. The other organization did....what?

Thanks again for providing a counterpoint.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

Reread that. You seem to think that under some circumstances--for instance, if your adrenaline is really cooking, or you haven't taken the time to figure out that your victim is unconscious because punching the kid so thoroughly and effectively--that it's acceptable or reasonable to whale on a kid you've already knocked out.

I disagree. And that's the way it's going to stay.

Reread it yourself. Once again you've got the cart pulling the horse. You cry about how wrong it is that the kid would blatantly "whale on a kid you've already knocked out." You assume that the kid knew the other guy was unconscious. And it's by no means a good assumption.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

Axe to grind, huh. Have you ever been assaulted or had a friend assaulted? Let's get one thing straight.

Once again emotion is driving people's response on this.

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

The tape clearly shows that: (1) The Lawrence kid pushed the Wichita kid.(And I don't think the Lawrence kid pushed for no reason; the tape shows both players leaning on each other as they are coming up the court so it was more a case of "get off of me") (2) In response, the Wichita kid pummelled the Lawrence kid with unnecessary excessive force not letting up until the coaches pulled him off of the Lawrence player. One has to wonder what would have happened if the caoches had not intervened.

That is an excellent question! What would have happened if it weren't for the coaches? You know, like the Lawrence kid's dad. When you hear out both sides, both sides say that there was at least one elbow thrown by the Lawrence kid. Was there just one elbow or multiple, incidental or intentional? We don't know. The video is shocking, to be sure. But we've only been shown about 10 seconds of it. We cant' say with any certainty what led to the fight. But we do know that fights don't generally materialize from nothing. So what really happened? We don't know.

But if the Lawrence kid is out there throwing elbows, who taught him that? Who coached that? Who allowed allowed one of his players to do it? Could it be Dad/coach? And if that is true (again, we don't know), are either of them likely to fess up to their role in what happened? Or are they more likely to go to the press with 10 seconds of shocking video and a carefully excised story because they don't think they got treated fairly by the DA?

No matter how emotional this story makes you, there are enough questions that remain unanswered and enough plausible allegations by the Witchita coach that one cannot reasonably take the Lawrence kid and his dad entirely at face value. The fact is they have an axe to grind. And that has nothing to do with whether I, or a friend has ever been assaulted.

Like I said before, after reviewing the original complaint, the prosecutor didn't see fit to bring charges. Why not? Perhaps because the actual facts do not present nearly as clear and compelling a case as this little PR stunt would have us believe.

[Raymond]

I'm not justifying anyone's actions. But just to make sure I saw this correctly on the Kansas television station news footage.

After the Lawrence kid (A1) secures a loose ball he throws an intentional elbow that appears to connect to Wichata kid's (B1) mid-section. B1 then shadows A1 the length of the court with some sort of physical and verbal interaction occurring, which then leads to A1 forcefully shoving B1. B1 retaliates with a clothesline and then 4 or 5 punches while A1 is prone.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Reread it yourself. Once again you've got the cart pulling the horse. You cry about how wrong it is that the kid would blatantly "whale on a kid you've already knocked out." You assume that the kid knew the other guy was unconscious. And it's by no means a good assumption.

Very true. Why would that kid know the other guy [who 1) was not moving, 2) not fighting back, and 3) not defending himself] was unconscious??

My answer.....because this is a kid who severely snapped and has some serious anger issues.

Chuck - I've double-checked this post for mis-spellings as well, none found. Rest easy.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you saying that the Lawrence player didn't instigate that mess with that shove?

Yes, the Lawrence player shoved the guy. Similar situation that I've had many times over the years. You catch most of them and it ends there, some you miss and the player comes and talks to you about it, or sometimes the players will get face to face. But never, ever, have I seen a kid retaliate in such a violent way. No excuse for violent actions in my book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

After the Lawrence kid (A1) secures a loose ball he throws an intentional elbow that appears to connect to Wichata kid's (B1) mid-section. B1 then shadows A1 the length of the court with some sort of physical and verbal interaction occurring, which then leads to A1 forcefully shoving B1. B1 retaliates with a clothesline and then 4 or 5 punches while A1 is prone.

That's basically what I saw too. The only comment I have is that the "intentional" adjective on the first elbow is judgement- not that I disagree with your judgement- but everything else is fact. The Lawrence kid did admit to elbowing his opponent though on that sequence.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Yes, the Lawrence player shoved the guy. Similar situation that I've had many times over the years. You catch most of them and it ends there, some you miss and the player comes and talks to you about it, or sometimes the players will get face to face. But never, ever, have I seen a kid retaliate in such a violent way. No excuse for violent actions in my book.

Nobody said that there was an excuse. It was "retaliation" however.

There's no excuse for elbowing and pushing an opponent like that either. The Lawrence player instigated the incident and has pretty-much admitted to doing so from what I've read. Iow there's two wrongs on the play, not just one, and both wrongs should also be penalized- not just one.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nobody said that there was an excuse. It was "retaliation" however.

There's no excuse for elbowing and pushing an opponent like that either. The Lawrence player instigated the incident and has pretty-much admitted to doing so from what I've read. Iow there's two wrongs on the play, not just one, and both wrongs should also be penalized- not just one.

Do tell JR. Let's say your C coming up the court, so you pretty much would be in line with these guys coming up the court. You see all events, the shove and then the clothesline, takedown, and beatdown. Whatcha got?

What if you see the shove, but instead of the violent actions the Wichita player pursues, he gets face to face with the Lawrence kid. Whatcha got now?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Very true. Why would that kid know the other guy [who 1) was not moving, 2) not fighting back, and 3) not defending himself] was unconscious??

My answer.....because this is a kid who severely snapped and has some serious anger issues.

Chuck - I've double-checked this post for mis-spellings as well, none found. Rest easy.

Go back and watch the fight closely. Go on, I'll wait. After the Lawrence kid dropped to the floor, the Witchita kid isn't looking at anything but his head, which is moving because of the blows. If you're watching from a distance, the angle the camera gives us, you can plainly see the kid not fighting back. But that's not what the Witchita kid is seeing.

I'm not saying what he did is right, and I'm not excusing it, but everybody who is piling on about how unconscienable his behavior for continuing to pummel an unconscious opponent needs set their outrage aside and actually think about whether the Witchita kid realized the other kid was unconscious or not.

There is no doubt that the kid snapped. But your diagnosis of "serious anger issues" sounds to be based more on your book of "no excuse for violent actions" than from any actual knowledge about this kid. In other words, based on emotion and not actual facts.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Go back and watch the fight closely. Go on, I'll wait. After the Lawrence kid dropped to the floor, the Witchita kid isn't looking at anything but his head, which is moving because of the blows. If you're watching from a distance, the angle the camera gives us, you can plainly see the kid not fighting back. But that's not what the Witchita kid is seeing.

I'm not saying what he did is right, and I'm not excusing it, but everybody who is piling on about how unconscienable his behavior for continuing to pummel an unconscious opponent needs set their outrage aside and actually think about whether the Witchita kid realized the other kid was unconscious or not.

There is no doubt that the kid snapped. But your diagnosis of "serious anger issues" sounds to be based more on your book of "no excuse for violent actions" than from any actual knowledge about this kid. In other words, based on emotion and not actual facts.

Trust me, no emotions here. Fact - Conscious, unconscious, really is not relevant. Fact - I really don't care what that kid was seeing at the time. Fact - This is "You hit me with a stick, so I'll club you with a bat".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Trust me, no emotions here. Fact - Conscious, unconscious, really is not relevant. Fact - I really don't care what that kid was seeing at the time. Fact - This is "You hit me with a stick, so I'll club you with a bat".

IU,

could you please tell us what you would have had when (Lawrence = A1/Wichata = B1):

• A1 secured loose ball then elbowed B1 in the midsection

• B1 got in A1's face on the way up the court

• A1 & B1 kept running their mouths at each on the way up the court

• A1 shoves B1

Those are the 4 events I saw leading up to B1 attacking A1. Two of those events A1 is at fault, one event both are, and one event B1 is at fault. So IMO A1 carries the most weight for "initiating" the incident. This, of course, in no way excuses or absolves B1 excessive response.

But those 4 events immediately preceeding the attack are called mitigating circumstances and I'm sure affect how a criminal prosecutor or civil court judge would view the merits of the case. It's not just a simple case of an unprovoked assault.

Of course, this is all JMO.