Fight during game

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Now.....what's your call as an official?

Personally, I think I'd call that a "fight" and give both players flagrant personal fouls for fighting.

NFHS rule 4-18-2 - "Fighting includes....an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate". NCAA rule 4-23-3(b) basically uses the same language.

Write 'er up real good, and let whoever game management was on that game deal with the fall-out.

Jmo....

What I saw was an unprovoked shove in the back during a drive to the basket. This kid who got pummelled is nothing but a cheap shot artist. He just happened to cheap shot the wrong guy. I like to think he's learned a lesson, but now his daddy is dragging him around crying to the press that he's an innocent victim.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What I saw was an unprovoked shove in the back during a drive to the basket. This kid who got pummelled is nothing but a cheap shot artist. He just happened to cheap shot the wrong guy. I like to think he's learned a lesson, but now his daddy is dragging him around crying to the press that he's an innocent victim.

Daddy might be taking a chance with what he's doing now though. I ain't a prosecutor (even though I watched the OJ trial.... man, that Greta van Sustern broad is ogggglly) but I think that, with the provocation, you either gotta charge both of 'em or fuggedaboutit completely. Kinda looks like they're trying to forget about it.

Rec league basketball......

- Time for the Yankees......my tv is coal-fired. Takes a while to warm up.

[IUgrad92]

That's just great. Any kid, with your philosophy, is going to feel retaliating in this fashion is justified...........if he feels he took a "cheap shot", that is.

What the Lawrence kid was wrong, what the Wichita kid did was worse. And who typically gets caught in retaliation scenarios??? There better be charges filed.

If the Wichita kid was getting elbowed through the coarse of the game, then he should have been asking the officials to watch for it, or at least tell his coach and let the coach talk to the officials about it.

This happened on a basketball court Dan, not some back alley.

[grizwald]

I'd find it hard to believe that the kid in the dark jersey attacked the kid in the white jersey like that over just that one shove. Perhaps he did, but since the entire game is on tape, you'd have to prove it for me to believe it.

And since that is what a jury (or judge in the case of a juvenile charge in most states) would be asked to do. And since it doesn't appear the prosecutor wants to move forward. I'd guess the rest of the tape either conveniently doesn't exist, or doesn't paint the same picture as this dad would like you to believe.

There is one universal truth, prosecutors like to win cases especially easy ones that are (or could be) high profile. Wins, especially ones that everyone knows about, are good for career advancement in the criminal law profession.

If this case is as open and shut as that footage and that dad would have you believe, I'd guess that charges would be brought. The fact that they haven't been, would make me think otherwise. But like I said perhaps I'm wrong. Let’s see the parts of the tape that the other side would like us to see as well.

It's making no excuses for the kid beating the living crap out of the other kid. It clearly is not the right thing to do, however it may not be a criminal act either.

[grizwald]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

This happened on a basketball court Dan, not some back alley.

Does the law care where it happened when it comes to the question of guilt in a court room?

[IUgrad92]

I knew I'd have to explain this to somebody..........

Have you heard the term "Back alley abortion"?? My point was, the back alley is a place not controlled, just about anything can and does happen. I don't believe it is the same notion for a basketball court. The events there ARE controlled, or should be anyway. It should be held to a higher regard.

I'm sorry, but to say that hopefully this kid learned a lesson after getting pummelled while being unconscious, to me, is appalling.

I should hope it wouldn't matter where a crime is committed. That would be a very scary thing as well.

Maybe the prosecutor doesn't want to proceed because he/she feels like votes might be lost in the next election. Who knows................

[grizwald]

I got your point.

But I was pointing out that it seems from your comment that you have moved right past the guilt portion of the trial. Right on to the penalty phase. Where you argue the aggravating factors like, it happened at a school, during a controlled event, etc...

I'm not saying that you have already determined the kid’s guilt.

I'm just saying based on that comment it seemed like you had seen 10 seconds of evidence, heard maybe 1 minute of "testimony" from the victim and the victim's dad. And from that had determined guilt.

You haven't heard the defense, which everyone is entitled to. Don't rush to judgment. If you have already, take a few steps back.

Not trying to jump on you or argue. I respect everyone's opinions.

[gsf23]

So why wasn't a foul called if it was such a blatent shove in the back?

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by gsf23

So why wasn't a foul called if it was such a blatent shove in the back?

I thought the same thing. I also wonder what the lead was thinking. He didn't move in very quickly. Not sure what he'd do when he got there but he should at least get there and better be blasting his whistle.

I think if the shove was called with a hard close in, maybe the fight doesn't happen.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

That's just great. Any kid, with your philosophy, is going to feel retaliating in this fashion is justified...........if he feels he took a "cheap shot", that is.

I don't think anybody has said that the retaliation was justified. I don't think Dan implied that when he said that the Lawrence hopefully learned a lesson. I hope the kid learned a lesson, too. The Wichita kid will hopefully learn a different lesson. That doesn't "justify" either kid's actions.

What the Lawrence kid was wrong, what the Wichita kid did was worse.

I'm not sure anybody would disagree with you, or has disagreed with you on that point.

If the Wichita kid was getting elbowed through the coarse of the game,

If the game was coarse, the officials probably should've given T's for profanity. If the court was coarse, maybe it needs to be sanded. If he was getting elbowed through the course of the game, however, I agree that he should've let the refs handle it. Just a thought from your annoying Mr. Spelling Guy.

[TravelinMan]

If you look closely at the last video replay, it looks like both players are coming up court leaning on each other. The Lawrence player then pushes the other player off of him. It doesn't look like he shoved him without provocation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

It doesn't look like he shoved him without provocation.

Agree. Imo the Lawrence player instigated the incident with the shove. Another angle might be helpful, but we ain't gonna get that.

[tomegun]

OK, the kit took a major beat down and that shouldn't have happened. There is no way I would jump to a conclusion that this other player just did this out of the blue. Even the kid gave himself away when he talked to the reporter: "I think I elbowed him in the chest after a rebound", or something like that. Yeah, right! If I wanted to jump to a conclusion I would say that the lawyer could take the film sent by the dad, the interview and a tape of the whole game (if one exists) and ask the father, "Are you sure you want us to proceed?" Something could be fishy about this "unprovoked attack."

[TravelinMan]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, the kit took a major beat down and that shouldn't have happened. There is no way I would jump to a conclusion that this other player just did this out of the blue. Even the kid gave himself away when he talked to the reporter: "I think I elbowed him in the chest after a rebound", or something like that. Yeah, right! If I wanted to jump to a conclusion I would say that the lawyer could take the film sent by the dad, the interview and a tape of the whole game (if one exists) and ask the father, "Are you sure you want us to proceed?" Something could be fishy about this "unprovoked attack."

Tom, I know the Lawrence player was wrong but these things do happen "in the heat of battle" as you know. But, due to the grossly excessive force used by the Wichita player, I think something should be done for him before this really becomes a problem. Maybe a good anger management class and some community service would save this kid from becoming another Marvin Barnes when he grows up. For those of you not familiar with that incident, (I'm a PC grad so I know), after a few elbows and shoving occurred during a scrimmage, Barnes went back to his room after the scrimmage and got a tire iron and attacked his fellow teammate in the cafeteria. Different situation I know , but if this kid's behavior goes unchecked it might very well lead to the same thing.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

That's just great. Any kid, with your philosophy, is going to feel retaliating in this fashion is justified...........if he feels he took a "cheap shot", that is.

I gotta say, in terms of critical thinking skills I'm doubting you got your money's worth in that IU degree. Hopefully it's not too late to get a refund.

Or maybe whatever you learned there has been forgotten.