Fight during game

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Do tell JR.

1) Let's say your C coming up the court, so you pretty much would be in line with these guys coming up the court. You see all events, the shove and then the clothesline, takedown, and beatdown. Whatcha got?

2) What if you see the shove, but instead of the violent actions the Wichita player pursues, he gets face to face with the Lawrence kid. Whatcha got now?

Yup, do tell, IU. Do you think that I'd post it if I damnwell didn't believe it?

1) I posted at 4:59pm last Friday - 3 days ago- exactly what I'd call after viewing the video. Nothing I've seen or heard since would come close to making me change my mind. That incident is a fight, by rule, and I'd give both players flagrant personal fouls for fighting. Equal punishment. The Lawrence player instigated the fight and the Wichita player retaliated. I also cited the applicable NFHS and NCAA rules at that time. I'd write it up, and any action beyond the double flagrant foul would be up to the league or the police.

2) Depends on what the Wichita player does when he gets face to face. Any trash-talk/threats/pushes, etc. is gonna earn him a technical foul. If he manages to hold his temper and turn away, then I'll only have one foul- an intentional or flagrant personal foul on the Lawrence player, depending on how bad I interpret the push. Viewing the push on the video alone, if there was no retaliation, I''d probably call an intentional personal foul on the Lawrence player. If the Wichita player then trash talks/threatens/pushes the Lawrence player, I'd have a false double foul-- an intentional personal foul on the Lawrence player followed by a technical foul on the Wichita player.

Now, how about you?

[Mwanr1]

I hate to say this but the RACE OF THE PLAYERS have everything to do with it!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I hate to say this but the RACE OF THE PLAYERS have everything to do with it!!!

It might be one factor, but it does not have to be "THE" factor. I am surprised it took a long time for someone to mention that. I think this was a kid that did something to a kid and did not realize the kid he was messing with. He messed with a kid that was not just going to "let it go" and got his *** kicked.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I hate to say this but the RACE OF THE PLAYERS have everything to do with it!!!

Only to the people that want the race of the players to have something to do with it.

[Mwanr1]

-add to that the entire Wichita team was suspended for the remainder of the season. They will probably never get to play in this league again!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

-add to that the entire Wichita team was suspended for the remainder of the season. They will probably never get to play in this league again!

And this relates to race....how?

And how do you know they will probably never play in this league again? Please share your information with us.

[Mwanr1]

Perhaps they should suspend one player vs. the entire team? I actually don't have the information on whether they will ever get to play in the league, that's why I said "probably!" But if I am the commisioner of the league, I would probably not let them play too....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

perhaps they should suspend one player vs. the entire team?

That is a legitimate concern. I would have only considered the racial element to have to do with how the kids reacted to each other. I do find it funny they did not just get rid of the one player or players involved and punish the whole team.

Either way it goes you will never convince JR that race is a factor in anything. He thinks since the Civil Rights movement ended in the 60s (his thinking not many other people) he thinks race is never a factor and you should not mention it. He is not alone, but he feels race should never be mentioned no matter how valid the concern is. Take the advice or leave it.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Mwanr1 is a classic example of what I call a "pigeon poster." He swoops in unexpected, craps all over everything, and then flies away and leaves us to deal with the mess he made.

So, all-knowing, all-seeing Mwanr1-the-mysterious-and-wise, please explain how "THE RACE OF THE PLAYERS have everything to do with it!!!" [sic] and just how you know this. I await your wisdom and enlightenment.

[TravelinMan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelinMan
Axe to grind, huh. Have you ever been assaulted or had a friend assaulted? Let's get one thing straight.

Once again emotion is driving people's response on this.

Back in the Saddle -
Just rejoined discussion. Had to laugh at your comment because people that really know me say I need to show more emotion. I wasn't being emotional at all. MY POINT was that when you are assaulted, it is inaccurate to call it "an axe to grind". And if it ever happens to you, you would know what I mean. It is normal for a person who has been viciously attacked to seek retribution. You seek retribution because of the injustice you have suffered, not for any "axe to grind".

And please...don't categorize people.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Either way it goes you will never convince JR that race is a factor in anything. He thinks since the Civil Rights movement ended in the 60s (his thinking not many other people) he thinks race is never a factor and you should not mention it. He is not alone, but he feels race should never be mentioned no matter how valid the concern is. Take the advice or leave it.

Rut, you don't know my thinking. You never will.

I was thinking of you and people like you though when I made my statement above. You didn't let me down.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Perhaps they should suspend one player vs. the entire team? I actually don't have the information on whether they will ever get to play in the league, that's why I said "probably!" But if I am the commisioner of the league, I would probably not let them play too....

Again, whatinthehell has this got to do with race?

And why would you punish one complete team for the actions of one player?

And how about the other team? No punishment required?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelinMan
Axe to grind, huh. Have you ever been assaulted or had a friend assaulted? Let's get one thing straight.

Once again emotion is driving people's response on this.

Back in the Saddle -
Just rejoined discussion. Had to laugh at your comment because people that really know me say I need to show more emotion. I wasn't being emotional at all. MY POINT was that when you are assaulted, it is inaccurate to call it "an axe to grind". And if it ever happens to you, you would know what I mean. It is normal for a person who has been viciously attacked to seek retribution. You seek retribution because of the injustice you have suffered, not for any "axe to grind".

And please...don't categorize people.

I can agree with much of what you have said. It most certainly is understandable, fair and right to seek justice when one has been assaulted. However, if the offended party truly had no axe to grind, the American justice system would look very different. The offended party would testify, the jury would render it's judgement and the judge would pronounce sentence. There would be no need for lawyers, witnesses, cross-examination, evidence. But it is common that the offended party tells only part of the story, embellishes, minimizes their own role, remembers details incorrectly, perceives details based on bias, or flat out alters the truth in an attempt to get retribution. Thus it is always wise to assume that the accuser has an axe of some sort to grind. To assume otherwise is to refuse to critically examine the accuser's statements. While we naturally want to be sympathetic toward the victim, that is an emotional response.

In this case, however, there is more than just the assault, there is also the perceived injustice of the prosecutor not prosecuting the case which is driving this little PR job. That doubles the number of axes in this case.

As for categorizing people, we all do it every day. It's the way our brains work. New information is processed and stored in terms of how it is similar and dissimilar to previously processed information. We categorize to survive. But, with the notable exception of my response to Mwanr1, I have been very careful not to categorize the people in this discussion, merely the responses. And it is accurate to categorize many of the responses in this discussion as emotion-based.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rut, you don't know my thinking. You never will.

I was thinking of you and people like you though when I made my statement above. You didn't let me down.

I do not claim to know exactly what you are thinking. I just know anytime someone mentions anything about race you always have something negative to say about it. And as usually you were the first to make that point known.

You have a good evening.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

IU,

could you please tell us what you would have had when (Lawrence = A1/Wichata = B1):

• A1 secured loose ball then elbowed B1 in the midsection

• B1 got in A1's face on the way up the court

• A1 & B1 kept running their mouths at each on the way up the court

• A1 shoves B1

Those are the 4 events I saw leading up to B1 attacking A1. Two of those events A1 is at fault, one event both are, and one event B1 is at fault. So IMO A1 carries the most weight for "initiating" the incident. This, of course, in no way excuses or absolves B1 excessive response.

But those 4 events immediately preceeding the attack are called mitigating circumstances and I'm sure affect how a criminal prosecutor or civil court judge would view the merits of the case. It's not just a simple case of an unprovoked assault.

Of course, this is all JMO.

• A1 secured loose ball then elbowed B1 in the midsection

From the video, I cannot tell 100% that he made contact when he swung around. I don't see B1 bend over as to what a normal reaction would be if he'd taken a hard shot to the midsection. If no contact, then I have an excessive swinging of arms violaton. If any contact, then I have a player control foul.

• B1 got in A1's face on the way up the court

I stop play, get those two together, tell them that nothing extra-curricular is going to happen during this ballgame and that they are being watched. Then I inform my partner to keep an eye on both players.

• A1 & B1 kept running their mouths at each on the way up the court

Depending on the severity of the exchange, I either stop play and give them the "your both being watched" lecture, or a double technical foul.

• A1 shoves B1

I have a personal foul on A1, based on the video and what I saw.

And for the takedown and pummelling, I have a fragrant technical and B1 is gone.

Interestingly, as the players are coming up the court you can see a coach for Team B jumping up and down, wanting either a double dribble or a travel, can't really make it out. I would have thought he'd be complaining about that thrown elbow?? I mean, he was a lot closer to the play than the video camera. Maybe it wasn't as bad as you and some others are making it out to be.......JMO