fight

Tim Roden · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 12:25pm

I saw an interesting fight the other night at a game and I am not sure it was handled correctly. The game was a 5A playoff game being shown on local TV. I don't think the camera's did it any justice but here is what I think I saw. The visitors had been playing nasty for most of the game and the officials for the most part had been letting it go. The coach had already been T'd earlier in the game for something he said so he was already sitting. The visitors were already losing by quite a bit at this point. So at about 4 minutes to go in the game, a student of the home team comes out of the stands and starts fighting with one of the players for the visitors. The penalties administrated were, Flagrent Technical on the visiting player. Ejection of the fan. There were other students who went onto the court during the fight but nothing was done to them. So we have two shots and the ball for the home team. The question I have is would you assess a technical against the home fans? Would you eject more then just the one kid who actually swung fist?

Danvrapp · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 01:19pm

In my humble, not-very-experienced opinion, I would have asked for the ejection of every fan that stepped onto the floor. If a player can't fight, then I'd think a fan certainly can't run onto the floor while a game is in progress and engage in physical activity of any kind with a player. Based on that, I'd toss 'em. Secondly, what kind of sportsman ship is that ijit showing? Sportsmanship is for the players, coaches, officials, and fans alike. Based on that, I'd toss 'em. Now, I'm only a first year official, but I've been to games where a technical has been assesed on a crowd (can't find a rule in the rule book giving permission to do so, however...), so having seen and said that, I'd warn 'em once, then whack 'em

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 01:45pm

Tim,

I believe I would probably have called a flagrant T on the player, a technical foul on the fan and had all of the fans who came onto the floor removed. I would also had an announcement made that any further action by fans from either team would result in the game being forfeited.

Is there an online story about this incident?

Tony

Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Now, I'm only a first year official, but I've been to games where a technical has been assesed on a crowd (can't find a rule in the rule book giving permission to do so, however...), so having seen and said that, I'd warn 'em once, then whack 'em

What type of behavior did you observe that warranted a T from an official?

BTW, here's the rule.
2-8-1
The officials shall:
Penalize unsportsmanlike conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant or follower.
NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized.

Danvrapp · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 01:53pm

When I was in junior high, my high school team was pretty good. It was a playoff game and the visiting team threw all kinds of stuff on the floor after a series of no-calls. Officials stopped play and assesed a technical. Then the respective teams coach got on the PA and basically told his fans to stop it or leave. That's the only time I've ever seen an official do this...at any level.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
When I was in junior high, my high school team was pretty good. It was a playoff game and the visiting team threw all kinds of stuff on the floor after a series of no-calls. Officials stopped play and ************esed a technical. Then the respective teams coach got on the PA and basically told his fans to stop it or leave. That's the only time I've ever seen an official do this...at any level.

That would seem to be appropriate.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 5th, 2001 at 03:58 PM]

Tim Roden · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 03:22pm

Based on what I saw, both combatants were tossed. But the other kids were just sent back to their seats and there was only one technical. In my opinion this would be a good place to throw the technical against the fans to cause the double technical. Since I saw the game on TV and was not there in person, I don't know that something wasn't said by the player to start the fight. In that case I wouldn't T the fan, just remove him from the building.

To the credit of game managment. The fighter was taken away very quickly with the help of a policeman on the sceene. The teachers in the building quickly moved to the student section to help maintain order. By the time the game was over there were a lot more men wearing blue standing around the parimiter of the floor. No further incidents occurred.

Dan_ref · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Tim,

I believe I would probably have called a flagrant T on the player, a technical foul on the fan and had all of the fans who came onto the floor removed. I would also had an announcement made that any further action by fans from either team would result in the game being forfeited.

Is there an online story about this incident?

Tony

Forfeit??? Forfeited to whom???? Based on what rule?

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 05:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Forfeit??? Forfeited to whom???? Based on what rule?

I didn't say I would forfeit the game. I said I would have an annoucement made to that effect. It's not unusual for this type of announcement to be made in this type of situation.

But if another home team fan came out of the stands to start another fight, it could certainly be an option.

2-5-4d
The referee may declare the game a forfeit when conditions warrant.

Dan_ref · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 05:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Forfeit??? Forfeited to whom???? Based on what rule?

I didn't say I would forfeit the game. I said I would have an annoucement made to that effect. It's not unusual for this type of announcement to be made in this type of situation.

But if another home team fan came out of the stands to start another fight, it could certainly be an option.

2-5-4d
The referee may declare the game a forfeit when conditions warrant.

How do you determine who the home team fans are and who the
visitor fans are? BTW, although you say it's not unusual
for this type of announcement to be made, I have never
seen it done nor heard of it done. I can't think of
a better way to incite a riot than threaten a forfeit.
I would sooner clear the gym of all spectators than
do that.

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
How do you determine who the home team fans are and who the visitor fans are?

Come on Dan. You can do better than that!

Quote:

BTW, although you say it's not unusual
for this type of announcement to be made, I have never
seen it done nor heard of it done. I can't think of
a better way to incite a riot than threaten a forfeit.
I would sooner clear the gym of all spectators than
do that.

I have heard this type of announcement made when when items were thrown on the floor. I think 99% of the fans would applaud efforts to remove such fans, speaking of the toher 1%. I don't see a riot being a problem or really ever getting to the point of having to forfeit a game. But if we're talkng in terms of rules, the authority is there.

williebfree · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 07:14pm

It is game management's responsibility to control the crowd. PA announcements in this situation are frequently made. However, as an official you try to maintain control without resorting to "threat" tactics. Clearing the gym to finish the game might not be an unthinkable option.

Fans can cheer having fanatics being removed from the gym... And imagine... these are incidents that are NOT alcohol-induced.... (OK, so I am a bit niave.)

Tim Roden · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 09:08pm

For those of you who are looking for an article, I found this one. It seams there is more to the story.

http://www.rockypreps.com/rockypreps/0301long1.shtml

Dan_ref · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 10:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
How do you determine who the home team fans are and who the visitor fans are?

Come on Dan. You can do better than that!

Quote:

BTW, although you say it's not unusual
for this type of announcement to be made, I have never
seen it done nor heard of it done. I can't think of
a better way to incite a riot than threaten a forfeit.
I would sooner clear the gym of all spectators than
do that.

I have heard this type of announcement made when when items were thrown on the floor. I think 99% of the fans would applaud efforts to remove such fans, speaking of the toher 1%. I don't see a riot being a problem or really ever getting to the point of having to forfeit a game. But if we're talkng in terms of rules, the authority is there.

Tony, if you're going to use the PA to threaten a
forfeit then you had better be able to back it up. I see
no way to back it up, whether we have the authority or
not. PA announcements to remove unruly fans or all the
fans are quite different, I agree they work 99%
of the time and they are the proper thing to do when the
fans get out of line.

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 05, 2001, 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Tony, if you're going to use the PA to threaten a
forfeit then you had better be able to back it up. I see
no way to back it up, whether we have the authority or
not.

I don't have any problem backing it up. Again, I'm not advocating doing it but the rules give the referee the authority to do so if necessary.

Brian Watson · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 06, 2001, 10:02am

I have seen these types of announcements come from the AD or coach, and usually the officials are not too involved (The Ad's KNOW when something hits the floor, they need to take action). I cannot remember if the word forfiet was used, but they were threatening and did the trick.

Now, we all know where the home students sit, if there is stuff being thrown repeatedly onto the floor I don't think you have to be in mensa to know who to T up (if a warning had been issued).