Hey, watch #24 for. . . .

[Junker]

I'm with the simple "OK coach" camp on this. It lets them know you are listening to them (which is what most of them want anyway). As far as actually looking for the foul or violation they want called, it's only getting called if I see it as a foul or violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

My opinion is what I have called the "Big Deal Theory". [/B]

The "Big Deal Theory".

Wow!

I bet you got that one from the....wait for it....SEC.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The "Big Deal Theory".

Wow!

I bet you got that one from the....wait for it....SEC.

Nah. It's just my way of saying "don't call palming on an unguarded point guard in the backcourt."

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Nah. It's just my way of saying "don't call palming on an unguarded point guard in the backcourt."

WHAT???!?!?!

Next thing you'll tell us it's ok for the free throw shooter to take more than 10 seconds...

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think this is a good conversation. And I especially appreciate that it's stayed civil. So let's keep it going a little longer. . .

I don't see the palming violation as legal. I recognize that it is illegal. I simply don't think it's worth calling in that situation. The rebounding sitch, as you correctly say, is about judgment. If the calling official thinks B1 was disadvantaged by not being given a normal landing, does that make it a blown call? Hard to say. It's his judgment.

I would ask you "why blow it?" What is the big deal about that call? Nothing. What if you blow it once, twice, three, four times and the point guard is just not talented or smart enough to fix it? Are you going to call 30 palming violations? Why not instead only call it when it makes a difference to the play?

If I gave that reply to my college assignor, I would guess that I would become the bottom rated official on his list. If I gave that reply to an observer at camp (who happens to assign a D1 league to which I aspire), I would instantly be removed from consideration. Go directly to jail, do not pass Go.

You're probably right. I think the conversation would go something like this. "Chuck, I've gotten a lot of calls from fans, coaches and AD's about palming in the backcourt. Screw the fans. Don't stop the game unless it matters".

We're sending the message that you call too many palming violations. That's a joke, obviously. But the fact is that I'm not "never" going to call it. I'm just never going to call it when he's unguarded in the backcourt. As soon as he carries to get by a defender, tweet!

My opinion is what I have called the "Big Deal Theory". Our job is to judge which actions are a big deal and which ones are not. I don't think anybody could say that palming while unguarded in the backcourt is really a big deal. It's a technical violation of the rules, yes. But is it a big deal? No. So no whistle.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 12th, 2006 at 11:27 AM]

Chuck, I too think this has been a good, interesting, and civil conversation and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

It seems that you probably work HIGHER PROFILE games than me. Especially when you speak of your college assigner. A college player who cant get the ball up the court without "palming" it is in big trouble. You wouldnt have to blow the whistle, maybe the first chance you get walk over and say, "son watch the palming violation." That would probably be sufficient.

My assigner, I don't think, would react the same way yours would. Hence, your BIG TIME, I'm not. You say what if the ball handler isnt capable of dribbling without palming?? Well I mostly work HS games, so I feel that if you cant dribble correctly by this age/stage in the game you might should consider a better way to use your time. But to answer your question if the dribbler palms it 25 times then call it 25 times. At some point the dribbler or coach will figure it out.

You go back to saying that as long as its in the backcourt it's okay by you but in the front court it's an automatic
"tweet." What if it were a Travelling violatioin?? Ball gets inbounded dribble shuffles his/her feet everytime. Then what?? Is this again a no call b/c it's in backcourt??

The way I view it is this: It's a violation, clearly against the rules no matter where it occurs. It deprives the team that is playing correctly of possesions. It's a turnover. If A1 plams/travels in the back court 30 times during the game and there is a no call, then thats 30 more times the other team should have had an opportunity to score b/c of a turnover (unforced or forced).

Another example, A1, while attempting to inbound the ball in the backcourt, steps in bounds before the release of the ball. It's a violation, but b/c it's in the backcourt you aren't going to call it?? Just food for thought.

Again thats for the conversation Chuck.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Nah. It's just my way of saying "don't call palming on an unguarded point guard in the backcourt."

Your advice might be a little more effective if you used your usual preamble though....

Oompa loompa Doopity Dee
If you were wise you would listen to me....

[bgtg19]

I, too, have enjoyed the civil conversation. I try not to call palming violations on an unguarded player, but sometimes the palming is SO obvious, so blatant, that it kind of *has* to be called, no? Every once in a while you'll see a player have a brain blurp and commit an illegal dribble (of the "double dribble" variety) that comes completely out of no where. I always call that violation (if I see it, of course); why is the palming variety treated differently? Why should it be?

Thanks for the continuing valuable observations.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
You go back to saying that as long as its in the backcourt it's okay by you but in the front court it's an automatic "tweet." What if it were a Travelling violatioin?? Ball gets inbounded dribble shuffles his/her feet everytime. Then what?? Is this again a no call b/c it's in backcourt??

First, I hope that you don't feel that I'm trying to "big time" you. These are my feelings and things that I've been told at camps. I work a small D3 schedule, along with my usual HS schedule, so I'm not a big-time ref, by any stretch of the imagination. And I am in NO WAY trying to make myself sound smarter or more important than anybody else. Just sharing my thoughts.

Second, even in the frontcourt, palming is not an automatic to me. If it's palming on the way to the basket, or to get by his defender, then it has to be called, b/c it gave the dribbler a significant advantage. This is an NCAA POE this season, and I think I'm explaining it pretty much the same way it was explained on the pre-season NCAA video.

Third, if it's a traveling violation, I can't give you a hard-and-fast answer. If there's no pressure, I can't see why he would travel. If it's a slight drag of the pivot foot, it's probably not going to get a whistle. If he takes 3 steps before starting his dribble, then that will get a whistle. Traveling is a bigger deal than palming. So I would be more likely to call a minor travel than a minor palming violation.

Another example, A1, while attempting to inbound the ball in the backcourt, steps in bounds before the release of the ball. It's a violation, but b/c it's in the backcourt you aren't going to call it?? Just food for thought.

This is one where I'm pretty sure we've been told (at the NCAA level) that it cannot be ignored. There was an NCAA tourney game a few years ago -- a women's game, I think -- where this happened and the covering official thought it was not a big deal and had no whistle. The opposing coach saw it, the TV cameras saw it, everybody saw it, and there was a big broo-ha-ha. After that, we were told that any line violation is a "big deal". I don't know where that bulletin is or exactly when it was issued. Maybe Mark D or Bob J can remember.

Finally, Dan said he would beat me up if I didn't tell you that he really is a joy to work with. So don't be too hard on him. He's a nice guy. Well, no he's not. But he's stronger than I am. In all seriousness, Dan and I have showered together and I'm still in therapy after that.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

First, I hope that you don't feel that I'm trying to "big time" you. These are my feelings and things that I've been told at camps. I work a small D3 schedule, along with my usual HS schedule, so I'm not a big-time ref, by any stretch of the imagination. And I am in NO WAY trying to make myself sound smarter or more important than anybody else. Just sharing my thoughts.

Second, even in the frontcourt, palming is not an automatic to me. If it's palming on the way to the basket, or to get by his defender, then it has to be called, b/c it gave the dribbler a significant advantage. This is an NCAA POE this season, and I think I'm explaining it pretty much the same way it was explained on the pre-season NCAA video.

Third, if it's a traveling violation, I can't give you a hard-and-fast answer. If there's no pressure, I can't see why he would travel. If it's a slight drag of the pivot foot, it's probably not going to get a whistle. If he takes 3 steps before starting his dribble, then that will get a whistle. Traveling is a bigger deal than palming. So I would be more likely to call a minor travel than a minor palming violation.

This is one where I'm pretty sure we've been told (at the NCAA level) that it cannot be ignored. There was an NCAA tourney game a few years ago -- a women's game, I think -- where this happened and the covering official thought it was not a big deal and had no whistle. The opposing coach saw it, the TV cameras saw it, everybody saw it, and there was a big broo-ha-ha. After that, we were told that any line violation is a "big deal". I don't know where that bulletin is or exactly when it was issued. Maybe Mark D or Bob J can remember.

Finally, Dan said he would beat me up if I didn't tell you that he really is a joy to work with. So don't be too hard on him. He's a nice guy. Well, no he's not. But he's stronger than I am. In all seriousness, Dan and I have showered together and I'm still in therapy after that.

D3 is definetly bigger time than me. No I dont feel like you are pushing that your better or bigger, I am just saying you probably are.

Again I'm not sure how or why we as officials try to determine the importance of a violation. A violation/foul is just that. I call it if I see it.

I'm sure Dan is a great guy, as are most of the guys who post here. Something about the comment this morning just didnt sit right with me. Probably me being a JACK@rse.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Finally, Dan said he would beat me up if I didn't tell you that he really is a joy to work with.

No, I said I would beat you up if you didn't stop annoying people with stupid jokes based on their tpyos.

So don't be too hard on him. He's a nice guy. Well, no he's not. But he's stronger than I am.

I have a 15 year old cat, used to weigh around 18# or so...now he can hardly see or hear & probably has cat alzheimer's (I know this because he no longer runs under the nearest couch when I walk in the room) and he weighs about 7#. He has a thyroid condition for which he gets 2 pills a day and hacks up his cat dinner at least once a week - usually on something I left sitting on the floor, God love him.

Chuck, that cat is stronger than you are.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

I guess this is where subjectivity comes in. I see a palming violation in the backcourt as a violation that has to be called for several reasons (mentioned above)and you see a palming violation in the backcourt as a good/legal dribble, but only because it's in the backcourt.

Officiating is Subjective(judgement). In the play you mention above A1 goes up for rebound, contact is made with B1 but does not cause "displacement," that by rule is NOT a foul. So if it's blown as a foul then it has been kicked.

Some officials enforce the 3 second area hard and some not so. My question to you is this, why not blow the whistle the first time you see the backcourt palming (you said you see it and let it go)? If it happens again you blow again. Eventually the dribbler is going to figure out that he must change something. If your assigner questions you about the call then, I would reply with "it's a violation."
What would look worse a coach/AD and gym full of parents and observers sreaming "PALM" and after the game they call your assigner saying "it was clear and obvious that the dribbler was palming the ball in the backcourt. Our coach pointed this out to the official who chose to ignore the rules." If enough people called complaining, I think your assigner may address the issue with you. If we as officials would consistantly call violation that we know are violations there would be less subjectivity. Suppose I work the game with the "Palmer" tonight and I call it from the get-go. After a couple of whistles the kid realizes that he/she cant do it anymore and stops. Tomorrow night you work this "palmers" game and you never call it. What message are we sending?? We are telling that kid to palm the ball all he wants one night and not the next. We must remember that we are dealing with teenagers here. If we just call it from the beginning there will be no confusion.

I do understand your point. And I completely respect your opinion.

Let me jump on top, since I've been away from the Internet for a few days. Most of us miss the occasional travel or illegal dribble in the backcourt once in a while, because there are better things to watch in a varsity game than a dribbler with no pressure. Most times it's safe to assume that a varsity player can dribble a ball with no defenders nearby......not always.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

I'll play coach/devils advocate here. You say, " I saw what your talking about coach and everyone on the floor is doing it." Coach says, "is it not a foul/violation no matter who does it." UHHH...

If the dicussion is about holding, then the answer is yes. You should be blowing the whistle everytime you see it. Your response of "everyones doing it(therefore I am not calling it on anyone) will cause you to lose crediablility faster than if you were calling every hold.

It should be called every time we ascertain that there's an advantage/disadvantage involved. Not every time we see something. That's how those JV games I see with 60 fouls are called.

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

It should be called every time we ascertain that there's an advantage/disadvantage involved. Not every time we see something. That's how those JV games I see with 60 fouls are called.

That what this whole thread has come down to (again)--advantage vs. disadvantage. Last time I recall a lengthy discussion on this, most of the 'experienced' refs agreed that in their area(s), you couldn't advance unless you knew how to properly apply it.

[jeffpea]

I think a lot of people would agree that there are several things that coaches want/expect from officials (being a former college asst. coach at D3 and D1 schools - I have a little insight on this). In general, coaches want: good judgement, consistent calls, to know that officials are listening to them, and communication.

If a coach asks you to "watch #24 - he's holding", acknowledge it. A specific request like that is probably accurate (remember I said "probably"). My best advice when a coach continues to harp on a specific foul/violation is to say that "Coach, your getting a consistent game from this crew. That hasn't been called a foul/violation tonight". Focus on the good job the crew is doing instead of hinting that everyone is fouling on the floor and you're not going to do anything about it.

I agree with Chuck, on his "Big Deal" theory. I won't call a handcheck foul when the dribbler is going east-wide; when the dribbler goes north-south then I call it. That works for me.

[lmeadski]

for a number of years, I have a feel for what coaches are looking for when they complain. Sometimes, the complaint is legit. "#23 is holding ref." Other times, the complaints are hollow, especially if the team is losing, or, the coach feels other calls aren't going his way (the whistle is only working one way). A simple acknowledgment, "I'll keep an eye coach," is usually all that is needed. Don't say it with tone, don't role your eyes. Just tell them you will watch, and then, without distracting yourself from the other action, keep an eye. In reality, does a coach's negative input or complaining about the calls INTIMIDATE us at all? It shouldn't. If we are calling the best game we can (honest & fair), we can do no more. Play on!