Hey, watch #24 for. . . .

[johnnyrao]

Originally posted by rainmaker
"Thank you."

"Thank you"

"I hear you, coach"

"Thank you"


For some reason, this has been foolproof (me-proof!). Coach knows you heard him, but you're not giving him anything, either. Works well on parents, too.

"you're horrible!" "Thank you."

"Blow the d*** whistle" "Thank you."

"I hope you're not doing the next game." "Thank you."

Rainmaker,

Request permission to copy this and use it myself. I think this is a great response and I can see a coach or fan just giving a stunned look when you simply say "Thank you."

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I don't care if a coach quietly asks me to watch a player.

If I think he's full of crap I'll just smile, tell him sure thing, thanks.

If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course).

It sure must be a pleasure to work with you. Explain this to me though your comment, "If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course)." What exactly would you as a self proclaimed enforcer of the rules "LET GO".

IMO if a coach says "watch #34 she is holding" then I am not going to make #34 my focus, but I will keep an eye open to see exactly whats going on. If he/she continues to ask for holding, then reply with I see the game and i see no infractions, when I do I'll blow the whistle. Do we ever miss calls??? How many times have you been waiting for your Varsity game to start, and while watching the JV game thought to yourself, "how can these guys not see that HE/SHE is (fill in the blank)." Point being that if a coach is pointing something out, he/she could be FOS and trying to throw you off your game, however he/she could have a legitimate case that might need to be addressed.

Sounds as though some of us maybe a little insecure. We miss things all the time. We are human, to error is common.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
What exactly would you as a self proclaimed enforcer of the rules "LET GO".

Breathe, Nate. Relax a little. It's too early in the morning for that level of frustration.

I would personally never use Dan's line "everybody's doing it", b/c the coach would probably have a retort that I wouldn't like. Having said that, there are plenty of things that we let go b/c they have no effect on the game.

Little guys with one foot in the lane for 4 seconds. Palming the ball while dribbling alone in the backcourt. Hand checking while the dribbler is not making any attempt to go to the basket.

Even as a self-proclaimed enforcer of the rules, I let these things go all the time. They're just not important. And if you're working a little kids game, then there's even more stuff that you're going to let go; otherwise your game will take 3 hours.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Breathe, Nate. Relax a little. It's too early in the morning for that level of frustration.

I would personally never use Dan's line "everybody's doing it", b/c the coach would probably have a retort that I wouldn't like. Having said that, there are plenty of things that we let go b/c they have no effect on the game.

Little guys with one foot in the lane for 4 seconds. Palming the ball while dribbling alone in the backcourt. Hand checking while the dribbler is not making any attempt to go to the basket.

Even as a self-proclaimed enforcer of the rules, I let these things go all the time. They're just not important. And if you're working a little kids game, then there's even more stuff that you're going to let go; otherwise your game will take 3 hours.

In kids and lower level games there are some things that you "let go", it is a must. But in upper level games??? Sure some incidental contact or hand checking that has no effect on the game. But my quetion is are you "letting anything go??" Those are not fouls/violations. Palming the ball in the backcourt, is a violation and in upper level games how are you going to respond to a coach who burns a TO and walks out (calmly) and says "sir he/she is palming the ball in the backcourt everytime, could you please watch for that??" Do you not think that if you blew the whistle one time on this kid who continually palms the ball in the backcourt that he/and his coach would take strides in correcting it? By not calling it were telling the kid it's okay to do it here but when you get here I have to call it.

You know that it is happening. You cant tell a coach that "oh it's in the backcourt and really having an effect on the game." WHY? Because its a violation. I think thats how some officials get a bad reputation. Coaches/AD's/Fans/Assigners see this as calling what you think is important and not calling what you see i.e. fouls and violations.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
Palming the ball in the backcourt, is a violation and in upper level games how are you going to respond to a coach who burns a TO and walks out (calmly) and says "sir he/she is palming the ball in the backcourt everytime, could you please watch for that??"

"I will, Coach. And if he does it on his way to the basket, I'll grab it."

Do you not think that if you blew the whistle one time on this kid who continually palms the ball in the backcourt that he/and his coach would take strides in correcting it?

I do not think that the coach would do that. The coach would say, "That's a cheap call. Why are you calling that 60 feet from the basket?" And he'd be right. And then I'd get a phone call from my assignor who would say, "That's a cheap call. Why are you calling that 60 feet from the basket?"

By not calling it were telling the kid it's okay to do it here but when you get here I have to call it.

That's exactly what I'm telling him.

You cant tell a coach that "oh it's in the backcourt and really having an effect on the game."

I disagree.

WHY? Because its a violation.

And it's also a violation for the post man to have his ankle on the line of the lane for 3 seconds. I don't call that one either. Two guys go up for a rebound. A1 bumps B1 from behind. B1 loses his balance slightly but is still able to secure the rebound without traveling. Some guys would call that a foul on A1. I wouldn't.

I think thats how some officials get a bad reputation.

I think calling palming in the backcourt is one reason some officials don't reach the level I'd like to reach.

Coaches/AD's/Fans/Assigners see this as calling what you think is important

That's b/c that is exactly what I am doing.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by mplagrow
As long as there are so many threads about coaches going, what do you guys tell a coach who says, "Watch number 24 for (fill in the foul or violation)!" Last time I had a coach say that, I just said, "I'm watching the whole game!" Do you ever give an OK to that? I tend not to, because I don't want it to seem like I'm acting on their directions. How about, "We're on it!" Other ideas?

If it's quiet enough that only me and the coach can hear his comments I say, "sure coach." If it's loud enough that everyone can hear it, I ignore it.

Z

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

"I will, Coach. And if he does it on his way to the basket, I'll grab it."

I do not think that the coach would do that. The coach would say, "That's a cheap call. Why are you calling that 60 feet from the basket?" And he'd be right. And then I'd get a phone call from my assignor who would say, "That's a cheap call. Why are you calling that 60 feet from the basket?"

That's exactly what I'm telling him.

I disagree.

And it's also a violation for the post man to have his ankle on the line of the lane for 3 seconds. I don't call that one either. Two guys go up for a rebound. A1 bumps B1 from behind. B1 loses his balance slightly but is still able to secure the rebound without traveling. Some guys would call that a foul on A1. I wouldn't.

I think calling palming in the backcourt is one reason some officials don't reach the level I'd like to reach.

That's b/c that is exactly what I am doing.

I guess this is where subjectivity comes in. I see a palming violation in the backcourt as a violation that has to be called for several reasons (mentioned above)and you see a palming violation in the backcourt as a good/legal dribble, but only because it's in the backcourt.

Officiating is Subjective(judgement). In the play you mention above A1 goes up for rebound, contact is made with B1 but does not cause "displacement," that by rule is NOT a foul. So if it's blown as a foul then it has been kicked.

Some officials enforce the 3 second area hard and some not so. My question to you is this, why not blow the whistle the first time you see the backcourt palming (you said you see it and let it go)? If it happens again you blow again. Eventually the dribbler is going to figure out that he must change something. If your assigner questions you about the call then, I would reply with "it's a violation."
What would look worse a coach/AD and gym full of parents and observers sreaming "PALM" and after the game they call your assigner saying "it was clear and obvious that the dribbler was palming the ball in the backcourt. Our coach pointed this out to the official who chose to ignore the rules." If enough people called complaining, I think your assigner may address the issue with you. If we as officials would consistantly call violation that we know are violations there would be less subjectivity. Suppose I work the game with the "Palmer" tonight and I call it from the get-go. After a couple of whistles the kid realizes that he/she cant do it anymore and stops. Tomorrow night you work this "palmers" game and you never call it. What message are we sending?? We are telling that kid to palm the ball all he wants one night and not the next. We must remember that we are dealing with teenagers here. If we just call it from the beginning there will be no confusion.

I do understand your point. And I completely respect your opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[B
"you're horrible!" "Thank you."

"Blow the d*** whistle" "Thank you."

"I hope you're not doing the next game." "Thank you."

[/B]

Personally, I'd never dream of letting any coach get away with saying any of those. Instant "T". Every comment there is personal and derogatory imo.

[Ref Daddy]

1) Quickly acknowledge any coach comments: a) Thank You, b) firm head nod, c) quick thumb up signal.

2) Clear your mind and focus on the game.

When coach calls out violations by a particular player - chances are overwhelming that the player mentioned is "beating" his opponent. If illegal - call it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by IREFU2

I have to disagree with you on that statement. Some coaches, not many are just trying to coach. There are team that do try to use every trick in the book to get an advantage. I always tell the coach, I will keep an eye out of it.

What don't you agree with? My first statement is the same as yours (OK coach, thanks = I'll keep an eye out for it).

If you mean this:

====
If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course).
====

Why would you tell a coach you'll "keep an eye out for it" when you've already seen it happen & passed on it and know you'll likely see it again soon and pass on it again? Although I think the term is over used, this type of thing will destroy your credibility IMO.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

What don't you agree with? My first statement is the same as yours (OK coach, thanks = I'll keep an eye out for it).

If you mean this:

====
If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course).
====

Why would you tell a coach you'll "keep an eye out for it" when you've already seen it happen & passed on it and know you'll likely see it again soon and pass on it again? Although I think the term is over used, this type of thing will destroy your credibility IMO.

I'll play coach/devils advocate here. You say, " I saw what your talking about coach and everyone on the floor is doing it." Coach says, "is it not a foul/violation no matter who does it." UHHH...

If the dicussion is about holding, then the answer is yes. You should be blowing the whistle everytime you see it. Your response of "everyones doing it(therefore I am not calling it on anyone) will cause you to lose crediablility faster than if you were calling every hold.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

I'll play coach/devils advocate here. You say, " I saw what your talking about coach and everyone on the floor is doing it." Coach says, "is it not a foul/violation no matter who does it." UHHH...

While it's not something I'm likely to say often I can't remember the last time I said "everyone's doing it" and the coach didn't smile back & say "yeah...I know...". That's because when I say "everyone's doing it" I know EVERYONE is doing it, and so does the coach. Also because I'm such a f@cking joy to work with.

If the coach decides he needs to debate me on the topic, well, I don't know about you but I don't debate coaches.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

While it's not something I'm likely to say often I can't remember the last time I said "everyone's doing it" and the coach didn't smile back & say "yeah...I know...". That's because when I say "everyone's doing it" I know EVERYONE is doing it, and so does the coach. Also because I'm such a f@cking joy to work with.

If the coach decides he needs to debate me on the topic, well, I don't know about you but I don't debate coaches.

The fact that you must be such a joy to work with is the only clear thing about your reply. The problem is that if you and the coach both know that violations/fouls are being committed, then whose job is it make sure they are called??? Coaches dont have whistles!! We do. It like saying well everyone is "travelling with the ball tonight coach, so I dont think I am going to call it on anyone."

From the sound of things there is a reason you dont talk to coaches(i.e. your sideline manner). No one said anything about debating with coaches. If you reply to the right coach with "oh they are all doing it, so I'm not calling it," they you can guarantee one thing, YOU WILL HAVE SOME EXPLAINING TO DO!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
From the sound of things there is a reason you dont talk to coaches(i.e. your sideline manner). No one said anything about debating with coaches. If you reply to the right coach with "oh they are all doing it, so I'm not calling it," they you can guarantee one thing, YOU WILL HAVE SOME EXPLAINING TO DO!!

Yeah, I'm a real prick (that word's OK according to Carl btw so don't email him to complain) and everyone hates me for it.

As for your guarantees... :shrug:

(btw check your caplock key.)

[ChuckElias]

I think this is a good conversation. And I especially appreciate that it's stayed civil. So let's keep it going a little longer. . .

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
I see a palming violation in the backcourt as a violation that has to be called for several reasons (mentioned above)and you see a palming violation in the backcourt as a good/legal dribble, but only because it's in the backcourt.

Officiating is Subjective(judgement). In the play you mention above A1 goes up for rebound, contact is made with B1 but does not cause "displacement," that by rule is NOT a foul. So if it's blown as a foul then it has been kicked.

I don't see the palming violation as legal. I recognize that it is illegal. I simply don't think it's worth calling in that situation. The rebounding sitch, as you correctly say, is about judgment. If the calling official thinks B1 was disadvantaged by not being given a normal landing, does that make it a blown call? Hard to say. It's his judgment.

My question to you is this, why not blow the whistle the first time you see the backcourt palming (you said you see it and let it go)? If it happens again you blow again. Eventually the dribbler is going to figure out that he must change something.

I would ask you "why blow it?" What is the big deal about that call? Nothing. What if you blow it once, twice, three, four times and the point guard is just not talented or smart enough to fix it? Are you going to call 30 palming violations? Why not instead only call it when it makes a difference to the play?

If your assigner questions you about the call then, I would reply with "it's a violation."

If I gave that reply to my college assignor, I would guess that I would become the bottom rated official on his list. If I gave that reply to an observer at camp (who happens to assign a D1 league to which I aspire), I would instantly be removed from consideration. Go directly to jail, do not pass Go.

If enough people called complaining, I think your assigner may address the issue with you.

You're probably right. I think the conversation would go something like this. "Chuck, I've gotten a lot of calls from fans, coaches and AD's about palming in the backcourt. Screw the fans. Don't stop the game unless it matters".

Suppose I work the game with the "Palmer" tonight and I call it from the get-go. After a couple of whistles the kid realizes that he/she cant do it anymore and stops. Tomorrow night you work this "palmers" game and you never call it. What message are we sending??

We're sending the message that you call too many palming violations. That's a joke, obviously. But the fact is that I'm not "never" going to call it. I'm just never going to call it when he's unguarded in the backcourt. As soon as he carries to get by a defender, tweet!

My opinion is what I have called the "Big Deal Theory". Our job is to judge which actions are a big deal and which ones are not. I don't think anybody could say that palming while unguarded in the backcourt is really a big deal. It's a technical violation of the rules, yes. But is it a big deal? No. So no whistle.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 12th, 2006 at 11:27 AM]