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Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think this is a good conversation. And I especially appreciate that it's stayed civil. So let's keep it going a little longer. . .
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Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
I see a palming violation in the backcourt as a violation that has to be called for several reasons (mentioned above)and you see a palming violation in the backcourt as a good/legal dribble, but only because it's in the backcourt.
Officiating is Subjective(judgement). In the play you mention above A1 goes up for rebound, contact is made with B1 but does not cause "displacement," that by rule is NOT a foul. So if it's blown as a foul then it has been kicked.
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I don't see the palming violation as legal. I recognize that it is illegal. I simply don't think it's worth calling in that situation. The rebounding sitch, as you correctly say, is about judgment. If the calling official thinks B1 was disadvantaged by not being given a normal landing, does that make it a blown call? Hard to say. It's his judgment.
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My question to you is this, why not blow the whistle the first time you see the backcourt palming (you said you see it and let it go)? If it happens again you blow again. Eventually the dribbler is going to figure out that he must change something.
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I would ask you "why blow it?" What is the big deal about that call? Nothing. What if you blow it once, twice, three, four times and the point guard is just not talented or smart enough to fix it? Are you going to call 30 palming violations? Why not instead only call it when it makes a difference to the play?
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If your assigner questions you about the call then, I would reply with "it's a violation."
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If I gave that reply to my college assignor, I would guess that I would become the bottom rated official on his list. If I gave that reply to an observer at camp (who happens to assign a D1 league to which I aspire), I would instantly be removed from consideration. Go directly to jail, do not pass Go.
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If enough people called complaining, I think your assigner may address the issue with you.
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You're probably right. I think the conversation would go something like this. "Chuck, I've gotten a lot of calls from fans, coaches and AD's about palming in the backcourt. Screw the fans. Don't stop the game unless it matters".
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Suppose I work the game with the "Palmer" tonight and I call it from the get-go. After a couple of whistles the kid realizes that he/she cant do it anymore and stops. Tomorrow night you work this "palmers" game and you never call it. What message are we sending??
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We're sending the message that you call too many palming violations.  That's a joke, obviously. But the fact is that I'm not "never" going to call it. I'm just never going to call it when he's unguarded in the backcourt. As soon as he carries to get by a defender, tweet!
My opinion is what I have called the "Big Deal Theory". Our job is to judge which actions are a big deal and which ones are not. I don't think anybody could say that palming while unguarded in the backcourt is really a big deal. It's a technical violation of the rules, yes. But is it a big deal? No. So no whistle.
[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 12th, 2006 at 11:27 AM]
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Chuck, I too think this has been a good, interesting, and civil conversation and have thoroughly enjoyed it.
It seems that you probably work HIGHER PROFILE games than me. Especially when you speak of your college assigner. A college player who cant get the ball up the court without "palming" it is in big trouble. You wouldnt have to blow the whistle, maybe the first chance you get walk over and say, "son watch the palming violation." That would probably be sufficient.
My assigner, I don't think, would react the same way yours would. Hence, your BIG TIME, I'm not. You say what if the ball handler isnt capable of dribbling without palming?? Well I mostly work HS games, so I feel that if you cant dribble correctly by this age/stage in the game you might should consider a better way to use your time. But to answer your question if the dribbler palms it 25 times then call it 25 times. At some point the dribbler or coach will figure it out.
You go back to saying that as long as its in the backcourt it's okay by you but in the front court it's an automatic
"tweet." What if it were a Travelling violatioin?? Ball gets inbounded dribble shuffles his/her feet everytime. Then what?? Is this again a no call b/c it's in backcourt??
The way I view it is this: It's a violation, clearly against the rules no matter where it occurs. It deprives the team that is playing correctly of possesions. It's a turnover. If A1 plams/travels in the back court 30 times during the game and there is a no call, then thats 30 more times the other team should have had an opportunity to score b/c of a turnover (unforced or forced).
Another example, A1, while attempting to inbound the ball in the backcourt, steps in bounds before the release of the ball. It's a violation, but b/c it's in the backcourt you aren't going to call it?? Just food for thought.
Again thats for the conversation Chuck.