Ten Second Free Throw Violation ...

[Raymond]

I would only eject a non-violent fight participant if they did something unsporting which instigated the fight. I have not seen anything listed in this thread that would fit that criteria.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I would only eject a non-violent fight participant if they did something unsporting which instigated the fight. I have not seen anything listed in this thread that would fit that criteria.

... An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Agree. That was the part of the rule that I keyed on, and I would hopefully have the presence of mind to remember that part of the rule, but it the heat of the moment ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. That was the part of the rule that I keyed on, and I would hopefully have the presence of mind to remember that part of the rule, but it the heat of the moment ...

... An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

However. The NFHS defines and gives examples of unsporting acts as baiting and/or taunting (among other acts).

Bait: To deliberately annoy or taut someone.

Taunt: A remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.

10-4-6-C: A player must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Baiting or taunting an opponent.

This action may not reach the level of taunting, but it certainly can be considered baiting (annoying), and thus, unsporting.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

However. The NFHS defines and gives examples of unsporting acts as baiting and/or taunting (among other acts). This action may not reach the level of taunting, but it certainly can be considered baiting (annoying), and thus, unsporting.

I probably should have inserted a few question marks in my post. I'm not looking to debate, nor do I have an answer, nor have I taken a side, I'm just acting as the Devil's advocate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I probably should have inserted a few question marks in my post. I'm not looking to debate, nor do I have an answer, nor have I taken a side, I'm just acting as the Devil's advocate.

Maybe others agree with my assessment that nothing that has been listed rises to the level of unsporting conduct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Maybe others agree with my assessment that nothing that has been listed rises to the level of unsporting conduct?

And that group might include me.

Probably is a spectrum issue rather than a binary black/white issue.

Even if it is a spectrum issue, the decision has to be binary, unsporting, or not unsporting.

Note that I said "not unsporting" because I still don't believe that such activity deserves any sportsmanship (sporting) award.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Bait: To deliberately annoy or taut someone. Taunt: A remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.

Provoke: Stimulate or give rise to a reaction or emotion, typically a strong or unwelcome one, in someone.

Another point that may move the needle a little, but probably not far enough.

NFHS definitions are often not the same as Funk and Wagnalls definitions.

[Raymond]

We are aware of the definitions of different words.

We have all worked games where players have yelled "Ball, ball, ball!" or "Dead, dead, dead!"

You are not breaking new ground here. And to diffuse your usual "brand new officials" reason for continuing a dying conversation, hopefully they learn whether or not to address this situation at their local level, and not from someone on the internet who has an obviously minority opinion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

We are aware of the definitions of different words.

We have all worked games where players have yelled "Ball, ball, ball!" or "Dead, dead, dead!"

You are not breaking new ground here. And to diffuse your usual "brand new officials" reason for continuing a dying conversation, hopefully they learn whether or not to address this situation at their local level, and not from someone on the internet who has an obviously minority opinion.

These are often times local standards that if called could get you fired or praised by different people. I think people should follow those first. I can say where I live if you call a T for some of these things suggested, you would get looked at as being rather technical. Just tell the players or teams to knock it off in some of those cases and move on. We make this stuff so complicated sometimes.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We make this stuff so complicated sometimes.

I disagree on the use of the word "we." It's only one person.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just tell the players or teams to knock it off in some of those cases and move on.

Great advice from a successful, experienced official. Thanks JRutledge.

"Please don't make me decide it that is unsporting taunting, or baiting. Please just stop doing it."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... who has an obviously minority opinion.

My rulebook based, and experience based opinion actually aligns with such activity not usually being deemed unsporting and thus not deserving of being tossed as provoking a fight.

Any opinion that finds this activity unsporting has to rely on extrapolation and dictionary definitions of rulebook definitions, certainly not a great way to interpret rules.

That being said, I've seen some very loud, obnoxious, over the top "Dead. Dead. Dead ..." activity over forty years that not only tells teammates that the ball handler no longer has her dribble but that also has the purpose of irritating, annoying, and panicking the ball handler.

I've thought to myself "knucklehead" for forty years and let it go because, not only have I never observed it being addressed by any of my colleagues, but also because it never provoked a response.

But eventually, if and when a response, physical, or oral, is provoked for the first time in my career, I may have to change my "rulebook" interpretation of such activity, and rely on my "gut" experience for the good of that game, that night, with those players.

If this activity happens in one of my games to the greatest extreme that I've ever observed it in forty years, and the ball handler immediately punches the defender, I can see myself, in the heat of the moment, especially in an already chippy game, tossing both players, and after, when the smoke clears (and I expect that there will be lots of smoke), being able to defend my call to my assigner along the lines of unsporting taunting, or baiting, and not losing any sleep over my call that night.

My heat of the moment call of this very extreme, very rare, once in a thousand-plus game event may not be viewed favorably by anybody, on the Forum, or anywhere else, but it would definitely be one of those "had to be there" calls.

Even the many who totally disagree with me, that say that I have crossed some "guardian of the game" line, can't deny that such extreme activity, while maybe not unsporting, can certainly never be considered sporting.