Ten Second Free Throw Violation ...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Haven't had to address this coming from bench personnel /knocks on wood, but I did have to stop a throw-in and tell a 6th grade girl in a CYO game to knock that off when she counted "1-2-3-4-5" rather quickly when she was defending a throw-in as I judged it an attempt to disconcert the thrower-in into thinking she had or was about to commit a violation.

I don’t agree. There is nothing illegal about distracting an opponent during a throw-in. Your only grounds for telling a counting player to stop is if you believe that it is an attempt to influence the official’s decision.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don’t agree. There is nothing illegal about distracting an opponent during a throw-in. Your only grounds for telling a counting player to stop is if you believe that it is an attempt to influence the official’s decision.

Or, if you deem it to be unsportsmanlike conduct.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Or, if you deem it to be unsportsmanlike conduct.

I can’t agree with that take either. There is nothing unsporting about counting out loud while guarding an opponent. It’s the same as hollering, “Ball, ball, ball” or “Dead, dead, dead.” I’m of the opinion that it could only be penalized if it is deemed an attempt to influence the official.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... deem it to be unsportsmanlike conduct.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is nothing unsporting about counting out loud while guarding an opponent ... I’m of the opinion that it could only be penalized if it is deemed an attempt to influence the official.

I agree with both Camron Rust and Nevadaref.

Attempting to influence an official’s decision is, by definition, also an unsporting act.

I'm actually extrapolating, since it's unsporting for bench personnel, it's probably also unsporting for a player, based on "not limited to acts or conduct ...".

Good for goose. Good for gander.

10-5-B Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Attempting to influence an official’s decision.

10-4: A player must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as …

The debate between Camron Rust and Nevadaref is a fine distinction of semantics.

If the official believes that the "counter" is trying to influence the official, it's definitely unsporting; but if the official believes that the "counter" is trying to influence the opponent, it's probably not unsporting.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

“Ball, ball, ball” or “Dead, dead, dead.”

In my personal opinion, there's no place for this (Nevadaref quote) in basketball, but as an experienced basketball official, I'm not touching this with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

Maybe in my very last game ever, just to take a stand and die on that hill.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my personal opinion, there's no place for this in basketball, but as an experienced basketball official, I'm not touching this with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole. Maybe in my very last game ever, just to take a stand and die on that hill.

And, at the risk of being labeled a sexist, it's mostly girls, most guys wouldn't be caught dead yelling, “Ball, ball, ball”, or “Dead, dead, dead.”

Just sayin'.

[Robert Goodman]

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indi cating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indi cating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

Nothing. And it's completely different from anything a referee would say (well, in that situation) -- but counting is something some officials do (even if they shouldn't) -- that's part of how I make a decision.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indicating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

It's not what they say, but how they say it, and how they keep repeating it over and over, trying to get under their opponent's skin, trying to panic their opponent.

Maybe it's alright in some sports, but I personally don't believe that yelling in an opponent's face in an irritating manner when one is only inches away is good sportsmanship in a basketball game.

I would never teach, or allow, the middle school kids I coached to do it.

Is it taunting? Probably not (but it could be). Is is baiting? Probably not (but it could be).

Maybe it isn't unsporting, but it certainly doesn't demonstrate good sportsmanship.

Is this what Dr. Naismith envisioned? What would Jesus do (Jesus Shuttlesworth, Big State University basketball player)?

Like I said, I ain't a "guardian of the game" hero, and as an experienced official I'm not addressing this activity with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

But I should.