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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 03:42pm
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Clock Start Error--Part IV (Part II, III and etc.)

Since the Holidays are over I thought I would start 2020 with a Play (this is the one for you NevadaRef) from one of the Facebook groups to which I belong. The Facebook group is call Basketball Officials Forum and one of its contributing members is John Adams, the Former NCAA Supervisor of Division I Men's Basketball Officials.

And as usual to my fellow long time members of the Forum, I apologize in advance the length of my comments, !


The person that posted the Video gave us some information regarding Play:

1) The Game Clock is to the left of the Backboard and out of view of the camera.

2) He does not tell us in what Period the game is nor does he tell us the score of the game.

3) He does not tell us what is the level of play but I am judging that it is a boys' H.S. freshmen level game.

4) He does tell us that is a Two-Person Officiating Crew.

5) He does tell us that Team Black (Team B) has been awarded a Stop Clocked Designated Throw-in on the End Line in its Front Court.

6) He does tell us how much Time is on the Game Clock but I am not going to tell you but I am sure that some of you will be able to tell which of the two Game Clock settings is the one in the Play.


Even though this game was played under NFHS Rules. This Play really deals with Game Awareness and I want Rulings based, not only upon NFHS Rules, but how it should be handled under NCAA Men's, NCAA Women's, NBA/WNBA, and FIBA Rules.



Play:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6Wfooqg...HH9WYZ0r5Wk5sI

a) The Game Clock is set at 0:02.5 or

b) the Game Clock is set at 0:00.5.


What say you?


MTD, Sr.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Sun Jan 05, 2020 at 03:47pm. Reason: Corrected typo.
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 07:07pm
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It seems like the clock possibly started a little early. So it would matter if the time was 2.5 as opposed to .5 on the clock. If I have definite knowledge, I might award the basket. But we would have to get together to make that decision.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 04:04am
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There are two issues to discuss here because the ball is clearly in the players hands when the horn sounds, so that point is not part of the discussion.

The first issue is to inquire if there was an obvious timing error and what the rules permit the referee to do about it.

The second issue to discuss is the impact of the period ending horn upon the players involved in the game action.

I wont answer for FIBA because I have no idea about those rules. Im no expert in NBA or NCAA either, but figure that in the contests with a courtside monitor the officials could use frame by frame with a timestamp or a stopwatch while viewing the video to correct any timing error. An NCAA D2 or D3 game or JC contest without a courtside monitor is more interesting from an officiating standpoint and should be like an NFHS game.

Now for NFHS, the referee may correct
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 04:20am
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an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock, but must have definite knowledge to do so. (5-10-1)

If the clock was only 0.5 seconds in the play shown on the video, I do not believe that I could state that this was an obvious mistake by the timer. I would therefore rule the attempt unsuccessful and the period over.

If the clock was at 2.5 seconds for the throw-in, I am certain that the timer improperly started the clock prematurely and this qualifies as an obvious timing error. Now the question becomes what to do about it.

Unfortunately, the period ending horn cannot be ignored. It signals the expiration of time in a quarter and the players will stop playing. Hence, in the general case, it would be unfair to the defending team to count the try. While the defenders may not have stopped in this particular situation and the try was attempted immediately, that may not always be the case and we are not seeking a ruling for a specific situation, but rather one which will handle such a timing error near the end of a period for all situations. Imagine if the player in the video pump faked and dribbled once prior to shooting while the defenders just stood there because the horn had sounded.

The ruling which we seek was provided by the NFHS about a decade ago.


NFHS Basketball Interpretations 2009-10

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A do over is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

My ruling on the play in MTD's video for 2.5 seconds left on the clock is that the try does not count and the offense will have a throw-in on the side of the court nearest to where the player with the ball was when the horn sounded. The game clock will be set at 2.2 seconds.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 09:43am
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All things considered

.5 I would be inclined to wave it off.
2.5 I would be inclined to count the bucket and end the period (clock runs on a make).
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
All things considered

.5 I would be inclined to wave it off.
2.5 I would be inclined to count the bucket and end the period (clock runs on a make).
You cannot count a try which was released after the period-ending horn. The ball is dead. There are clear rules which tell us those things.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You cannot count a try which was released after the period-ending horn. The ball is dead. There are clear rules which tell us those things.
There are, and following the rules wont get you in trouble, but also for any assignor I have worked with using common sense as well depending on the situation with supporting evidence and circumstances they have and always will support such decisions.

Either way you can or cannot go wrong. I have found the really good officials know when to use such judgement and are "right" at the right time.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 11:56am
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The horn sounded prematurely, thus I would treat it as an inadvertent horn. An inadvertent horn is to be ignored, unless participants are distracted by it. This may be the reason why deecee chose to ignore the horn and score the goal if 2.5 was the proper time on the game clock.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 12:13pm
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Inadvertent Horn ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The horn sounded prematurely, thus I would treat it as an inadvertent horn.
The horn didn't sound prematurely, the clock started prematurely. The horn sounded exactly when it was supposed to, at 00:00.00 on the game clock.

I do understand your inadvertent horn situation, a situation we occasionally see when the horn sounds incorrectly during a live ball, clock running situation. If the players don't seem too distracted we will yell "play on", or "play ball". If the horn impacts the players we will sound our whistles and reset.

I'm not sure that this thread is the same situation.

1-14: … the audible timer’s signal shall indicate that time has expired.

5-6-2: Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates
or sounds indicating time has expired, as in 1-14.


There are exceptions to 5-6-2, but none of them are relevant to this situation.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 06, 2020 at 12:25pm.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The horn sounded prematurely, thus I would treat it as an inadvertent horn. An inadvertent horn is to be ignored, unless participants are distracted by it. This may be the reason why deecee chose to ignore the horn and score the goal if 2.5 was the proper time on the game clock.
It was not an inadvertent horn. It was clearly the signal to end the period, albeit prematurely. That doesn’t matter. The ball is still dead when the period ending horn sounds indicating that the game clock has expired, unless a try is in flight.
That is what we have here happening here. The referee may correct the timing error, but the goal simply cannot be scored.

What if the player catching the ball drives to the hoop instead of immediately shooting? Let’s say the horn sounds and then he takes two dribbles while moving into the lane and subsequently puts the ball into the basket. Are you going to count that? The defense may not even try to defend. If your ruling does not work for that situation, then it cannot work for the less extreme case either. How to handle a timing error near the end of a period has ONE solution only. It must cover all cases. This is not a 2-3 situation. You can’t just make whatever decision you want. You need to adhere to the rules.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 12:46pm
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Additionally, what if an official sounds his whistle upon hearing the horn?
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 12:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You can’t just make whatever decision you want. You need to adhere to the rules.
But that takes all the fun (and power) out of being a basketball official.
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Old Tue Jan 07, 2020, 02:26am
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I was trying to explain why deecee proposed his unusual solution, and using the rules to justify it. Realistically, at least by rule, that solution is impossible, leaving the only valid solution as subtracting time (0.3 seconds, since the game clock started and immediately stopped) from the correct time of 2.5 seconds. 2.2 seconds should be enough for a catch and shoot situation.
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Old Wed Jan 08, 2020, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It was not an inadvertent horn. It was clearly the signal to end the period, albeit prematurely.
Since you can't see the clock, I'm not sure how you can know this. It's possible (though unlikely) the timer hit the horn button instead of the start clock button.
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Old Wed Jan 08, 2020, 11:26am
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The Plot Thickens ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
It's possible the timer hit the horn button instead of the start clock button.
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