Clock start error

[TwoBits]

Situation this weekend in a tournament using NFHS rules:

4.1 seconds on the clock with second of two freethrows being attempted. Second shot is successfull with ball rattling around the rim. Timer starts the clock as it touches the rim. Non-shooting team takes ball out and passes ball to half court just as buzzer sounds.

Question: Since the timer clearly started the clock too soon, can this timing error be corrected? Please provide a rule reference.

[cmathews]

When did the officials notice the mistake? If they noticed it when it occured they could have stopped it right there reset the clock and moved on...if they didn't realize it until the buzzer went off, they may not have definite knowledge, and without that there is no way to reset it...however if they had a count in the back court or the oob portion of the play, and had only gotten to 2 they may have knowledge....in short we need a little more info

[TwoBits]

I was lead official on this play, and knew there were 4.1 seconds left on the clock since I checked the time before the second FT was administered. The buzzer went off immediately after the player at half court received the ball on the long inbound pass. Timer admitted that she started the clock when the ball hit the rim.

[Jurassic Referee]

You can correct the timer's error in this case because you had exact knowledge of the time involved. Put 4.1 seconds back on the clock and give the ball to the non-FT shooting team on the endline for another end-line throw-in. You can't give the ball to the non-throwing team at half-court because you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed on the first throw-in.

NFHS rule 5-10-1.

[drothamel]

JR is right, as expected. Good thing that the basket was good, otherwise you would have a tough time with definite knowledge. In this situation, because of the good basket, you know that no time should have elapsed between the second free throw and the first legal touch in bounds after the throw-in. Make sure you let them run the end-line on the throw.

[TwoBits]

That is exactly how we did it, but I couldn't find a reference in the rule book or case book to back me up. Can you provide one?

Funny story follows: After much arguing by the team who just shot the FTs and after putting the 4.1 back on the clock, the inbounding team attempted a long pass and hit the curtain that divides the main court into two side courts! The team that argued wound up getting the ball back under their basket with another opportunity to score. Funny how things work out like that.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You can correct the timer's error in this case because you had exact knowledge of the time involved. Put 4.1 seconds back on the clock and give the ball to the non-FT shooting team on the endline for another end-line throw-in. You can't give the ball to the non-throwing team at half-court because you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed on the first throw-in.

NFHS rule 5-10-1.

If the buzzer sounded while the ball was in the air then yes.

What if A2 caught the ball at mid-court before the buzzer sounded? You going back to the endline with no time run off?

[TwoBits]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You can correct the timer's error in this case because you had exact knowledge of the time involved. Put 4.1 seconds back on the clock and give the ball to the non-FT shooting team on the endline for another end-line throw-in. You can't give the ball to the non-throwing team at half-court because you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed on the first throw-in.

NFHS rule 5-10-1.

That's the rule I'm looking for. Thanks.

[cmathews]

I am not sure that you can correct this. The definite knowledge in this case is not the 4.1, but the time elapsed when the player caught the ball...I do think if you correct it you move it to half court and put up the difference of 4.1 and what your 5 second count was up to assuming you had one going...if it was at 3 when the buzzer went off and there should have been little to no time run off I would go with 3 seconds at midcourt...However with all that said if the buzzer goes off before the player touches it I agree 100% with JR, put it at 4.1 and run the endline boys...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by cmathews
The definite knowledge in this case is not the 4.1, but the time elapsed when the player caught the ball...I do think if you correct it you move it to half court and put up the difference of 4.1 and what your 5 second count was up to ...

Mathews -- the clock wasn't running during the throw-in. So there should have been 4.1 when the player at mid-court caught the ball. If the buzzer sounded right as that player was catching, a do-over is within the rules...

... unless you want to have another 12 page thread complete with MTD heading up to the attic and roto-rootering out another 50 years worth of old rule books from 9 different organizations!

[cmathews]

remember this one happens with 4.1 as opposed to 2.8 so there is no 12 pg thread needed LOL...Juulie I agree with you if the buzzer sounds before or just as the player catches the ball, however if it occurs after the player catches it, and I believe it does, then you need to move it to mid court, and this is where the definite knowledge comes in, decide how much time is on the clock..if you had a count at 3 from the OOB play when the player touched it, then the buzzer goes off, you then know of at least 3 seconds of time that was running when it shouldn't be...set it at 3 give them the ball at midcourt and go...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

If the buzzer sounded while the ball was in the air then yes.

What if A2 caught the ball at mid-court before the buzzer sounded? You going back to the endline with no time run off?

Aw, geeze, you just started up the same ol' dumb argument again.

How can you possibly leave the ball at center? You'd then have to take some time off the clock to allow for the catch at center on the throw-in, wouldn't you? Now, how can you take any time off the clock when you don't have a clue as to how much time elapsed exactly on that throw-in catch. R5-10 won't let you put time back on the clock unless you have exact knowledge of how much time to put up. Well, in the case of a catch at center, you don't have exact knowledge. You'd have to guess at the elapsed time, and the rules won't let you guess.

The only spot in this play sequence where you do have exact knowledge of the time remaining is at the point where the throw-in occurred on the end line. If you're gonna correct anything, you gotta do it there.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
I am not sure that you can correct this. The definite knowledge in this case is not the 4.1, but the time elapsed when the player caught the ball...I do think if you correct it you move it to half court and put up the difference of 4.1 and what your 5 second count was up to assuming you had one going...if it was at 3 when the buzzer went off and there should have been little to no time run off I would go with 3 seconds at midcourt...However with all that said if the buzzer goes off before the player touches it I agree 100% with JR, put it at 4.1 and run the endline boys...

The 5-second throw-in count would end as soon as the ball was released by the thrower towards the court on the throw-in.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TwoBits
Non-shooting team takes ball out and passes ball to half court just as buzzer sounds.

Mathews -- It doesn't sound like there was much time if any between the catch and the buzzer. It may have even buzzed while the ball was in the air. I say, Do-over.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The 5-second throw-in count would end as soon as the ball was released by the thrower towards the court on the throw-in.

Good point JR...this kills any definite knowledge here because once you stop the count when the ball is thrown, you have no knowledge as to how long the ball was in the air.