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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 15, 2019, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

During practice....

Coach: Billy, go to the strong side so we can get Tom an isolation play.
Billy: Where would the lead official be? That's what determine strong side coach.
Coach: You are off the team. Get out.

There could be 10 players on one side and L on the other. Per you, and the manual, the strong side would contain no players. No one would claim the side with the L official is strong side. That would be illogical.

Often? That is my point. They should always be the same. Stick to that and there are far fewer problems than using the manual definition.

Who the hell cares what the player, coaches, fans, and talking heads say and think?

We are the game officials! We use correct terminology as defined in the Rules Book, the Casebook, the Officials Manual, the Illustrated Rules Book, and the Basketball Handbook. And the definition of Strong Side in the Officials Manual is very efficient: Short and to the point! If an official uses any other description to describe the Strong Side which does not conform to the NFHS Officials Manual or the CCA Men's and Women's Manual, that official is incorrect!

This should end this discussion.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. And as a Moderator I really hope that I do not have to close this thread, something I have never done before.
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Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Mon Jul 15, 2019 at 06:04pm. Reason: Added P.S.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 15, 2019, 08:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You're arguing that they should change a definition to match your misunderstanding.
No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.

Quote:
Are you going to argue that they should put over-the-back in the book next because many players and coaches use that term?
No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post

We are the game officials! We use correct terminology as defined in the Rules Book, the Casebook, the Officials Manual, the Illustrated Rules Book, and the Basketball Handbook. And the definition of Strong Side in the Officials Manual is very efficient: Short and to the point! If an official uses any other description to describe the Strong Side which does not conform to the NFHS Officials Manual or the CCA Men's and Women's Manual, that official is incorrect!
Officials do not use correct terminology all the time, not even close. Can't believe that you would suggest it.

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.

Good to know though, that the manual/books suggest otherwise. It might come in handy as some obscure text question some day, or maybe on Jeopardy!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 01:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.



No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.



Officials do not use correct terminology all the time, not even close. Can't believe that you would suggest it.

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.

Good to know though, that the manual/books suggest otherwise. It might come in handy as some obscure text question some day, or maybe on Jeopardy!
Everyone does not use the the way you keep insisting. If they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It sounds like you have someone in your area who has misinformed the masses and you're fighting to avoid admitting it.

Now, as to asking others, I did what you said with a small sample by text message. It is late so I have only got one response, but that response actually gave your definition (and from a veteran of a few state tournaments that is generally very on top of definitions and such).

You're not alone in your belief.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 07:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.
I must not be part of "everyone". Who are these people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.
Every time I've been in a room full of officials and someone has described ball-side as equaling strong-side, that person has been corrected. Must be a regional thing.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.



No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.
Educated officials that get in the rule book understand that the strong side is the side with two officials. I have sat through college camps throughout the summer with the clinicians referring to the strong side in this way, no one was confused or questioned this.

I would guarantee that there are officials that use the term "over the back" just because they and maybe some of their colleges may understand what it means, does not make it correct.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 06:34pm
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OK, guys. With acrimony asserting it's acrimonious head, I'll end this thread. Which is only fitting, because I'm the one who started it. I've learned what I need to learn, and thank all for the responses which, after all, were the opinions I was searching for.

Yes, I understand the phraseology of the NFHS Officials' Manual. (As an "educated official", I couldn't find it in the rule book . . .
I know what's in the manual. I was just trying to identify where the heck I came up with the definition I have used -- with no confusion on anyone's part and with not a single person challenging my use of the term, for a long time until now. I still don't know where I learned it, only that Nevada may have learned it somewhere, too. Not sure if that puts me in good company or not.

Anyhow, instead of me, answering the question, "How do I know when I should rotate?", as I used to:

A: "When C's side becomes strong side, you better have rotated."

Now, I'll learn to say this:

A: "When the on-ball competitive matchup and the predominant number of players are on C's side..."
. . . or . . .
A: "When it's clear that you have nothing happening in your PCA and C is overloaded over there..."

More cumbersome, but I think I can do it.

Thanx for the discussion.

Close it.
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Last edited by Freddy; Tue Jul 16, 2019 at 10:40pm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 16, 2019, 11:08pm
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My entire career has been based on repeated teachings for L to:

mirror the ball unless play dictates otherwise.


Play that might dictate otherwise includes ping-ponging in a zone, recognizing a set play, or lower skill basketball.

As L, very rarely will I not be ball side. If anything, I am guilty of occasionally rotating too frequently. I am yet to see that result in any problems though.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 17, 2019, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I must not be part of "everyone". Who are these people?
I must not be part of "everyone" either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Every time I've been in a room full of officials and someone has described ball-side as equaling strong-side, that person has been corrected. Must be a regional thing.
I will take it a step further. I cannot remember the last time this term was consistently used to describe where the officials are. We mostly talk about "balancing the floor" and mirroring the ball on some level, but hardly ever use the term "strong side" as it relates to where the officials are located. Not a term that is heavily used and that includes the college level when I am at camp.

Peace
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 17, 2019, 11:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
My entire career has been based on repeated teachings for L to:

mirror the ball unless play dictates otherwise.
I will not say this was an emphasis my entire career, but certainly most of my career. And still not much about what you call it beyond what the lead is instructed to do.

Peace
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 19, 2019, 08:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Who the hell cares what the player, coaches, fans, and talking heads say and think?

We are the game officials! We use correct terminology as defined in the Rules Book, the Casebook, the Officials Manual, the Illustrated Rules Book, and the Basketball Handbook. And the definition of Strong Side in the Officials Manual is very efficient: Short and to the point! If an official uses any other description to describe the Strong Side which does not conform to the NFHS Officials Manual or the CCA Men's and Women's Manual, that official is incorrect!

This should end this discussion.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. And as a Moderator I really hope that I do not have to close this thread, something I have never done before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.



No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.



Officials do not use correct terminology all the time, not even close. Can't believe that you would suggest it.

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.

Good to know though, that the manual/books suggest otherwise. It might come in handy as some obscure text question some day, or maybe on Jeopardy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Educated officials that get in the rule book understand that the strong side is the side with two officials. I have sat through college camps throughout the summer with the clinicians referring to the strong side in this way, no one was confused or questioned this.

I would guarantee that there are officials that use the term "over the back" just because they and maybe some of their colleges may understand what it means, does not make it correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
OK, guys. With acrimony asserting it's acrimonious head, I'll end this thread. Which is only fitting, because I'm the one who started it. I've learned what I need to learn, and thank all for the responses which, after all, were the opinions I was searching for.

Yes, I understand the phraseology of the NFHS Officials' Manual. (As an "educated official", I couldn't find it in the rule book . . .
I know what's in the manual. I was just trying to identify where the heck I came up with the definition I have used -- with no confusion on anyone's part and with not a single person challenging my use of the term, for a long time until now. I still don't know where I learned it, only that Nevada may have learned it somewhere, too. Not sure if that puts me in good company or not.

Anyhow, instead of me, answering the question, "How do I know when I should rotate?", as I used to:

A: "When C's side becomes strong side, you better have rotated."

Now, I'll learn to say this:

A: "When the on-ball competitive matchup and the predominant number of players are on C's side..."
. . . or . . .
A: "When it's clear that you have nothing happening in your PCA and C is overloaded over there..."

More cumbersome, but I think I can do it.

Thanx for the discussion.

Close it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
My entire career has been based on repeated teachings for L to:

mirror the ball unless play dictates otherwise.


Play that might dictate otherwise includes ping-ponging in a zone, recognizing a set play, or lower skill basketball.

As L, very rarely will I not be ball side. If anything, I am guilty of occasionally rotating too frequently. I am yet to see that result in any problems though.

1) Camron Rust and I have posted the correct, and I am emphasizing the word "correct", definition of "Strong Side" per the NFHS and CCA Men's and Women's Officiating Manuals. And let me repeat the definition of "Strong Side" one more time: The Strong Side of the Court is the side of Court on which the L is located. No other conditions matter. What side the Strong Side is not determined where Ball is, where the T is, where a majority Players are, or anything else except where the L is located.

2) We, the Game Officials, are the expert of the Rules and Mechanics. Our job description requires to know the Rules and to know correct Mechanics. Using correct terminology is what we are supposed to do. To do anything less would be to the detriment of our profession.

3) I was an active boys'/girls' H.S. official for 46 years, women's college official for 34 years, and a men's jr. college official for 15 years. I was a Rules Interpreter, I taught the OhioHSAA Certified Basketball Officiating Class, I sat on three IAABO National Committees, two recent past Chairmen of the NFHS Rules Committe are personal friends, I have attend basketball officiating camps, and been a evaluatator at IAABO camps. Guess what?! I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) heard Strong Side defined as anything other that the side of the Court where the L is. And in any discussion in which I have ever been involved, any time an official used a incorrect definition either I corrected them or someone above my pay grade corrected them.

If one wants to be taken seriously in any profession then that person must use correct terminology.

Just one more time before I sign off for the evening: The Strong Side of the Court is the side of the Court that the L is located. At this point I would hope that BillyMac would insert a GIF of a rapper dropping his mic, .

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 20, 2019, 01:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
3) I was an active boys'/girls' H.S. official for 46 years, women's college official for 34 years, and a men's jr. college official for 15 years. I was a Rules Interpreter, I taught the OhioHSAA Certified Basketball Officiating Class, I sat on three IAABO National Committees, two recent past Chairmen of the NFHS Rules Committe are personal friends, I have attend basketball officiating camps, and been a evaluatator at IAABO camps. Guess what?! I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) heard Strong Side defined as anything other that the side of the Court where the L is. And in any discussion in which I have ever been involved, any time an official used a incorrect definition either I corrected them or someone above my pay grade corrected them.
Quote: "I... I.. I.. I.. I.. I.. I.. I.."

Who can argue with that?

I said close it about five posts ago. DeNucci, why don't you just close the discussion and, given the opinions I was seeking to learn have been given about two pages ago, exercise your "I" once and for all on this thread?

PS. Answer you email once and a while, will ya'?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 20, 2019, 10:00am
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
At this point I would hope that BillyMac would insert a GIF of a rapper dropping his mic ...
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 21, 2019, 01:28pm
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Apparently MTD has never been to Rome.
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