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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 02:59pm
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Is "the patient whistle" and "possession consequence" ruining the game?

Was talking to some reffing buddies of mine who have attended several camps over the last few years. These two concepts seem to be the most common concepts they bring home from the college camps they go to.

We were talking about whether these two concepts are, overall, making the game of basketball more physical and making it hard for players to adjust to the way the game is called.

Personally, I'm torn. I understand the concept of trying to see the whole play through before calling a foul in order to determine whether or not the contact had an impact on the play, but I think that also opens up a lot of grey area. A player has the right to shoot the ball without being illegally contacted by his opponent. If he plays through that contact and happens to make the shot, the rules say he should be rewarded for doing that, not penalized by having an official swallow the whistle.

I think perhaps it also makes it difficult for players to understand the way the game is being called. If A1 gets B1 on the arm, but B1 makes the shot, and then on the other end of the floor, there is similar contact, but A1 misses and there's a foul, it really seems like A1 is being allowed to play more physical.

I dunno. This is all just a bunch of jumbled up thoughts in my head. I'm certainly not saying it has to be one way or the other. And I actually may have the concepts completely wrong. I haven't made it to a college camp yet. This is just based on several chats with my reffing buddies who have made it there.

Thoughts?
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:03pm
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If you don't call the game the way the "powers that be" want it called.... you'll referee an endless parade of MS girls............
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:06pm
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No it is not when you understand the rules that are in place.

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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:06pm
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I would say it's more of a concept that is used at the college level and if applied the same at the HS level you may have problems.

I have found that college big men expect and actually like to play through more contact.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:11pm
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I think the patient whistle is great for all levels of play.
I prefer to be late & right vs. quick & wrong any day!
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:11pm
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I think there are officials that take the concept too far...and assume since the shooter made a shot, he was not disadvantaged.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:13pm
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For a lot of folks "patient whistle" means no blood, no foul.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:20pm
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You really need to understand that those concepts are mainly applied to NCAA games, and are not necessarily NFHS principles. I don't disagree with using them in NFHS games...just understand that the level of contact needed to impact a play is considerably less in HS games than it is in NCAA games. Maybe in some of the 6A/7A games where there are a number of D-1 and D-2 caliber players on the court, but most HS games can not and should not be called like an NCAA game.

So the principles are sound and valid...how we apply those principle may not be.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:39pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
No it is not when you understand the rules that are in place.

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Do you care to expound? I'm genuinely interested.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:44pm
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Do you care to expound? I'm genuinely interested.
Are there rules not in place called "Incidental Contact?" If you read that rule in detail clearly you must determine a few things to not call a foul. The rules are almost to the letter exactly the same in language and intent between NCAA and NF Rules. The difference is the NCAA has used more literature and philosophy to identify when that is. Actually NCAA has done a much better job to explain what is a foul and if you have watched many games over the last couple of years there are more fouls for actions that HS officials try to pass on.

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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:45pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I would say it's more of a concept that is used at the college level and if applied the same at the HS level you may have problems.
I guess this is what is frustrating me. We have a lot of what I would call "hot shot" refs in our association who are going to college camps in the summer, then bringing in the principles they learn there and trying to apply them and teach them to younger officials. We had a scrimmage the other night with 6 or 7 JV officials listening to this one varsity official who had gone to his first college camp the previous summer (and who got some JUCO games for the first time this year) throwing out these concepts as if we were supposed to call the game the same for HS as they are taught for college. It's frustrating.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 03:57pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I would say it's more of a concept that is used at the college level and if applied the same at the HS level you may have problems.

I have found that college big men expect and actually like to play through more contact.
I haven't read all the comments as I'm on my way out the door for the day, but I think this comment is spot on. Working at both levels I've had college guys who get pissed when I call a foul and don't let the play finish out, while at the high school level the powers that be maintain that "a foul is a foul".

You have to know and understand your audience and who you're working for. Expectations can and do change from level to level.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 04:09pm
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Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
We have a lot of what I would call "hot shot" refs in our association who are going to college camps in the summer, then bringing in the principles they learn there and trying to apply them and teach them to younger officials.
Why do you have to be a "hot shot" because you're investing in your career?

At least they are bringing the info home, afterall, they could just hoard it to themselves.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 04:10pm
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
I think there are officials that take the concept too far...and assume since the shooter made a shot, he was not disadvantaged.
This is part of the problem. But I doubt it's worse now than twenty years ago. And the shooter doesn't have the right to shoot without being contacted. He has the right to shoot without being put at a disadvantage from illegal contact. There's a difference.

Sometimes, a patient whistle is the only way to see if there's an advantage.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 04:11pm
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Originally Posted by rockchalk jhawk View Post
while at the high school level the powers that be maintain that "a foul is a foul".
Can someone tell me what that means? How do you determine fouls without consideration for what is not a foul?

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