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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 10, 2019, 05:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Strong side is ball and L side. Simple.
I disagree...as does the mechanics manual defitition. Strong side is not defined by the ball. It is defined only by the location of the L....

Quote:
3.0.11 Strong Side: Side of the court determined by the location of Lead official.
Often, they are one and the same, but the L, in some case is not ball-side and they are still on the Strong Side.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 10, 2019, 08:04pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Thank you for the responses.

In answer to the question, "When should Lead rotate?", I've been accustomed to say, "When it is apparent that Center's side has become strong side." That, by my previous working definition of strong-side ("The side of the court with the on-ball competitive matchup and player population prompting Lead to rotate") always worked so well. But now, if I change to conform to one of the different definitions mentioned above, how shall I answer that question? What simple and succinct answer would you recommend to the question, "When should Lead rotate?"
(Not a trick question. I'm truly interested in changing...)
When it is clear to the Lead that the Center will be overloaded.

Officials can generally handle two match-ups, but three is too much. Just like the T doesnt need help from the C in the backcourt when it is 2 on 2, but does once five players (or it is 3 on 3) are actively participating in the action in the backcourt. This is guideline that I use to tell me when a partner needs coverage help.

So a ball-handler with an on-ball defender would be one match-up (and the primary one), add two opposing players jockeying for position in the high or low post on the Cs side (or running a pick and roll) and that official has the maximum that he can handle. If another player now comes over to screen, set up for a shot, or to receive a pass on the wing, the Lead should be rotating.

I also agree with Camron. Go with the player or competitive match-up that indicates to you that the Cs side is now where the action is. Dont wait. See that play develop and get into position to officiate it. Dont leave your C overwhelmed and trying to cover everything going on over there by himself!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 10, 2019, 08:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I disagree...as does the mechanics manual defitition. Strong side is not defined by the ball. It is defined only by the location of the L....



Often, they are one and the same, but the L, in some case is not ball-side and they are still on the Strong Side.
Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

During practice....

Coach: Billy, go to the strong side so we can get Tom an isolation play.
Billy: Where would the lead official be? That's what determine strong side coach.
Coach: You are off the team. Get out.

There could be 10 players on one side and L on the other. Per you, and the manual, the strong side would contain no players. No one would claim the side with the L official is strong side. That would be illogical.

Often? That is my point. They should always be the same. Stick to that and there are far fewer problems than using the manual definition.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 10, 2019, 08:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
When it is clear to the Lead that the Center will be overloaded.
Of all the replies thus far, this is the best I've seen.
Open for other perspectives.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 10, 2019, 09:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

During practice....

Coach: Billy, go to the strong side so we can get Tom an isolation play.
Billy: Where would the lead official be? That's what determine strong side coach.
Coach: You are off the team. Get out.

There could be 10 players on one side and L on the other. Per you, and the manual, the strong side would contain no players. No one would claim the side with the L official is strong side. That would be illogical.

Often? That is my point. They should always be the same. Stick to that and there are far fewer problems than using the manual definition.
Players/coaches/fans, sure, they can use it however they want. But, we're not talking players/coaches/fans. We're talking officiating. Officials don't describe it the same way (or at least shouldn't) because we're talking about entirely different things. In the officiating context, it is talking about the strength of the officiating alignment....2 officials makes it strong (in 3-person), the L (in 2-person) makes it strong. That is because the presence of the L gives much stronger coverage than if the L is on the other side.

Officiating terminology often differs from fan/coach/player-speak. This is just another example....we don't call reaches, we don't call walking, we don't say a player was set, etc.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Jul 10, 2019 at 09:11pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 11, 2019, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.
The *TEAM's* strong side is where most of the players are. That's why coaches and players use it as yuou describe.

The *OFFICIAL's* strong side is where most of the officials are. That's why we should use the term that way.

It's perfectly consistent.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 11, 2019, 11:14am
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Officialese ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.
From my two cents:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... “strong side” as a basketball coach ... I coached middle school basketball for over twenty-five years and attended many coaching workshops, including those with college coach presenters, and the term “strong side” always meant the side of the court with the ball. The very first time I heard it we were instructed to imagine a string tied to one basket ring and stretched across the length of the court and tied to the other basket ring. If the ball was one side of this string, that was the “strong side”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... don't confuse coaching language with officiating language.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 11, 2019, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The *TEAM's* strong side is where most of the players are. That's why coaches and players use it as yuou describe.

The *OFFICIAL's* strong side is where most of the officials are. That's why we should use the term that way.

It's perfectly consistent.
Good point Bob. Consistent? Yes, but not in the most efficient way. To be even more efficient and more consistent, strong side should be defined the same way for everyone. Too bad the manual editors did not write what they meant.

Ironically, in discussions involving the court, I have never heard an official use the term strong side to discuss where the L was. Rather, they were using it to describe where the ball was. Invariably, the point being made in the discussion was that the L should be on the strong side, where the ball was.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 11, 2019, 02:42pm
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I get why the question was asked and why someone might want to know. But when it is all said and done, does it matter if what we say it is differs from what teams or coaches use? We are not them and what we call or refer to our language of the rules or mechanics, is really not the concern of coaches or fans for that matter. These are terms or jargon for us to teach the system. I really do not care what others say and it is not a thing where many people even realize our logic for why we use certain terms. Do you think anyone's life is changed because we use "end line" over "base line?" Nope. No one cares but officials and many times officials do not care in the right circles.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 11, 2019, 04:39pm
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Kipling Said It Best ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... strong side should be defined the same way for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... does it matter if what we say it is differs from what teams or coaches use? We are not them and what we call or refer to our language of the rules or mechanics, is really not the concern of coaches or fans for that matter. These are terms or jargon for us to teach the system.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 13, 2019, 10:28am
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"We've gotta match their strong side with our strong side. When the on-ball matchup and enough action is over there that Center is overloaded, Lead's rotation should already have been underway."

Maybe?
Close?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 13, 2019, 04:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Two-Person or Three-Person: Strong Side is the side of the court on which the Lead is. That has always been the definition of Strong Side.

MTD, Sr.


We have been going on for two pages now and I do not wish to sound like a curmudgeonly old coot, BUT read what I highlighted above in RED! And then go to the 2017-19 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual, 2.35 STRONG SIDE, on Page 19. I do not have access to my Men's and Women's CCA Manuals but I will bet dollars to donuts that the definition of Strong Side is exactly the same.

Strong Side has only one definition and it is the Side of the Court on which the Lead is. It has absolutely nothing to do with Ball Location, the T's Location, or match-ups!

MTD, Sr.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 13, 2019, 05:03pm
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Camron:

I missed your post with the CCA Manual Definition. Thank you.

MTD, Sr.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 15, 2019, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
We have been going on for two pages now and I do not wish to sound like a curmudgeonly old coot, BUT read what I highlighted above in RED! And then go to the 2017-19 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual, 2.35 STRONG SIDE, on Page 19. I do not have access to my Men's and Women's CCA Manuals but I will bet dollars to donuts that the definition of Strong Side is exactly the same.

Strong Side has only one definition and it is the Side of the Court on which the Lead is. It has absolutely nothing to do with Ball Location, the T's Location, or match-ups!

MTD, Sr.
I do not dispute your objective evidence and points. I am simply saying that it (the manual definition) is very inefficient, inconsistent, and not what the writers meant.

Doing an internet search for "basketball strong side" will reveal hundreds of thousands of results and I could not find one (not that I looked at them all) that mentioned it was the side of the L official. They (most of the initial relevant results were involving definitions) all included it to mean the side of the ball. If anything the writers should correct it but no one cares enough to put up a fuss over consistency/efficiency any more.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 15, 2019, 03:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I do not dispute your objective evidence and points. I am simply saying that it (the manual definition) is very inefficient, inconsistent, and not what the writers meant.

Doing an internet search for "basketball strong side" will reveal hundreds of thousands of results and I could not find one (not that I looked at them all) that mentioned it was the side of the L official. They (most of the initial relevant results were involving definitions) all included it to mean the side of the ball. If anything the writers should correct it but no one cares enough to put up a fuss over consistency/efficiency any more.
The writers meant exactly what is there. It has always been that way. The fact that you found thousands of references to another meaning in a different context is irrelevant. Again, we're talking officiating terminology, not player/coach terminology. They're meant to describe two different things for two groups of people.

I also fail to see how it is in any way inefficient or inconsistent.

You're arguing that they should change a definition to match your misunderstanding. Are you going to argue that they should put over-the-back in the book next because many players and coaches use that term?
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