Your Opinion Sought: "Strong Side"

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree...as does the mechanics manual defitition. Strong side is not defined by the ball. It is defined only by the location of the L....



Often, they are one and the same, but the L, in some case is not ball-side and they are still on the Strong Side.

Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

During practice....

Coach: Billy, go to the strong side so we can get Tom an isolation play.
Billy: Where would the lead official be? That's what determine strong side coach.
Coach: You are off the team. Get out.

There could be 10 players on one side and L on the other. Per you, and the manual, the strong side would contain no players. No one would claim the side with the L official is strong side. That would be illogical.

Often? That is my point. They should always be the same. Stick to that and there are far fewer problems than using the manual definition.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

During practice....

Coach: Billy, go to the strong side so we can get Tom an isolation play.
Billy: Where would the lead official be? That's what determine strong side coach.
Coach: You are off the team. Get out.

There could be 10 players on one side and L on the other. Per you, and the manual, the strong side would contain no players. No one would claim the side with the L official is strong side. That would be illogical.

Often? That is my point. They should always be the same. Stick to that and there are far fewer problems than using the manual definition.

Players/coaches/fans, sure, they can use it however they want. But, we're not talking players/coaches/fans. We're talking officiating. Officials don't describe it the same way (or at least shouldn't) because we're talking about entirely different things. In the officiating context, it is talking about the strength of the officiating alignment....2 officials makes it strong (in 3-person), the L (in 2-person) makes it strong. That is because the presence of the L gives much stronger coverage than if the L is on the other side.

Officiating terminology often differs from fan/coach/player-speak. This is just another example....we don't call reaches, we don't call walking, we don't say a player was set, etc.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

The *TEAM's* strong side is where most of the players are. That's why coaches and players use it as yuou describe.

The *OFFICIAL's* strong side is where most of the officials are. That's why we should use the term that way.

It's perfectly consistent.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The *TEAM's* strong side is where most of the players are. That's why coaches and players use it as yuou describe.

The *OFFICIAL's* strong side is where most of the officials are. That's why we should use the term that way.

It's perfectly consistent.

Good point Bob. Consistent? Yes, but not in the most efficient way. To be even more efficient and more consistent, strong side should be defined the same way for everyone. Too bad the manual editors did not write what they meant.

Ironically, in discussions involving the court, I have never heard an official use the term strong side to discuss where the L was. Rather, they were using it to describe where the ball was. Invariably, the point being made in the discussion was that the L should be on the strong side, where the ball was.

[JRutledge]

I get why the question was asked and why someone might want to know. But when it is all said and done, does it matter if what we say it is differs from what teams or coaches use? We are not them and what we call or refer to our language of the rules or mechanics, is really not the concern of coaches or fans for that matter. These are terms or jargon for us to teach the system. I really do not care what others say and it is not a thing where many people even realize our logic for why we use certain terms. Do you think anyone's life is changed because we use "end line" over "base line?" Nope. No one cares but officials and many times officials do not care in the right circles.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... strong side should be defined the same way for everyone.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... does it matter if what we say it is differs from what teams or coaches use? We are not them and what we call or refer to our language of the rules or mechanics, is really not the concern of coaches or fans for that matter. These are terms or jargon for us to teach the system.

[Freddy]

"We've gotta match their strong side with our strong side. When the on-ball matchup and enough action is over there that Center is overloaded, Lead's rotation should already have been underway."

Maybe?
Close?
Got Better?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

From my two cents:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... “strong side” as a basketball coach ... I coached middle school basketball for over twenty-five years and attended many coaching workshops, including those with college coach presenters, and the term “strong side” always meant the side of the court with the ball. The very first time I heard it we were instructed to imagine a string tied to one basket ring and stretched across the length of the court and tied to the other basket ring. If the ball was one side of this string, that was the “strong side”.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... don't confuse coaching language with officiating language.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bucky

Correct, this is where the manual is wrong. The writers, and only the writers, defined it by an official, whereas everyone else (unless your an official reading the manual) defines it by where the ball is. Fans, coaches, players, and officials all describe play and activity based on where the ball is, not an official.

During practice....

Coach: Billy, go to the strong side so we can get Tom an isolation play.
Billy: Where would the lead official be? That's what determine strong side coach.
Coach: You are off the team. Get out.

There could be 10 players on one side and L on the other. Per you, and the manual, the strong side would contain no players. No one would claim the side with the L official is strong side. That would be illogical.

Often? That is my point. They should always be the same. Stick to that and there are far fewer problems than using the manual definition.

Who the hell cares what the player, coaches, fans, and talking heads say and think?

We are the game officials! We use correct terminology as defined in the Rules Book, the Casebook, the Officials Manual, the Illustrated Rules Book, and the Basketball Handbook. And the definition of Strong Side in the Officials Manual is very efficient: Short and to the point! If an official uses any other description to describe the Strong Side which does not conform to the NFHS Officials Manual or the CCA Men's and Women's Manual, that official is incorrect!

This should end this discussion.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. And as a Moderator I really hope that I do not have to close this thread, something I have never done before.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're arguing that they should change a definition to match your misunderstanding.

No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.

Are you going to argue that they should put over-the-back in the book next because many players and coaches use that term?

No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We are the game officials! We use correct terminology as defined in the Rules Book, the Casebook, the Officials Manual, the Illustrated Rules Book, and the Basketball Handbook. And the definition of Strong Side in the Officials Manual is very efficient: Short and to the point! If an official uses any other description to describe the Strong Side which does not conform to the NFHS Officials Manual or the CCA Men's and Women's Manual, that official is incorrect!

Officials do not use correct terminology all the time, not even close. Can't believe that you would suggest it.

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.

Good to know though, that the manual/books suggest otherwise. It might come in handy as some obscure text question some day, or maybe on Jeopardy!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.



No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.



Officials do not use correct terminology all the time, not even close. Can't believe that you would suggest it.

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.

Good to know though, that the manual/books suggest otherwise. It might come in handy as some obscure text question some day, or maybe on Jeopardy!

Everyone does not use the the way you keep insisting. If they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It sounds like you have someone in your area who has misinformed the masses and you're fighting to avoid admitting it.

Now, as to asking others, I did what you said with a small sample by text message. It is late so I have only got one response, but that response actually gave your definition (and from a veteran of a few state tournaments that is generally very on top of definitions and such).

You're not alone in your belief.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bucky

No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.

I must not be part of "everyone". Who are these people?

Originally Posted by bucky

And when a room full of officials uses the term strong side to describe the ball side, they are not incorrect because the communication works. All are in agreed understanding. As I indicated, I know of no official, nor anyone for that matter, that describes strong side the manual way.

At your next large meeting, put up a slide asking the room to define strong side. Please, no leading the witnesses. See how many have the word "ball" in their definition. Then, feel free to correct them all, lol. I plan on it at our next meeting.

Every time I've been in a room full of officials and someone has described ball-side as equaling strong-side, that person has been corrected. Must be a regional thing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I must not be part of "everyone". Who are these people?

I must not be part of "everyone" either.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Every time I've been in a room full of officials and someone has described ball-side as equaling strong-side, that person has been corrected. Must be a regional thing.

I will take it a step further. I cannot remember the last time this term was consistently used to describe where the officials are. We mostly talk about "balancing the floor" and mirroring the ball on some level, but hardly ever use the term "strong side" as it relates to where the officials are located. Not a term that is heavily used and that includes the college level when I am at camp.

Peace

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by bucky

No, they should change it to match everyone's understanding.



No, because officials do not use it. You are changing the scenario from a shared term by more than one group to a term used by one group.

Educated officials that get in the rule book understand that the strong side is the side with two officials. I have sat through college camps throughout the summer with the clinicians referring to the strong side in this way, no one was confused or questioned this.

I would guarantee that there are officials that use the term "over the back" just because they and maybe some of their colleges may understand what it means, does not make it correct.

[Freddy]

OK, guys. With acrimony asserting it's acrimonious head, I'll end this thread. Which is only fitting, because I'm the one who started it. I've learned what I need to learn, and thank all for the responses which, after all, were the opinions I was searching for.

Yes, I understand the phraseology of the NFHS Officials' Manual. (As an "educated official", I couldn't find it in the rule book . . .
I know what's in the manual. I was just trying to identify where the heck I came up with the definition I have used -- with no confusion on anyone's part and with not a single person challenging my use of the term, for a long time until now. I still don't know where I learned it, only that Nevada may have learned it somewhere, too. Not sure if that puts me in good company or not.

Anyhow, instead of me, answering the question, "How do I know when I should rotate?", as I used to:

A: "When C's side becomes strong side, you better have rotated."

Now, I'll learn to say this:

A: "When the on-ball competitive matchup and the predominant number of players are on C's side..."
. . . or . . .
A: "When it's clear that you have nothing happening in your PCA and C is overloaded over there..."

More cumbersome, but I think I can do it.

Thanx for the discussion.

Close it.