NFHS 5 second inbound count starting

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When does the official start counting? When the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder.

When is the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder? When the official starts counting.

I'll add the following question...

On any other throw in administered by an official, when does the ball become available to the thrower? Does it start when we know they should have a throwin (on the infraction that stops the clock) or when we actually give them the ball OOB? If we bounce them the ball, does it start as we bounce them the ball or when they catch the ball?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

On any other throw in administered by an official, when does the ball become available to the thrower? Does it start when we know they should have a throwin (on the infraction that stops the clock) or when we actually give them the ball OOB? If we bounce them the ball, does it start as we bounce them the ball or when they catch the ball?

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and ye shall find ... (Matthew 7:7)

4-4-7: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Now we just need a NFHS definition for "available to a player" (only for after a basket) and we're ready to rock and roll.

For the good of the cause: The nonshooting team can be granted a timeout before the bounced ball is caught by the free thrower.

The ball becomes live when: On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Note: When do we ever (by the manual) hand the ball to the free thrower (see a. above)? I haven't done that for over thirty years. Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

[jTheUmp]

"at the disposal of the thrower" after a made basket is entirely up to the judgement of the official. That's why we make the big bucks.

You'll never find a book interpretation of exactly how long that takes, because it can vary greatly... a if it goes through the hoop and is caught by a member of Team B, it's at their disposal within a second or so. If the ball takes a weird bounce or inadvertently caroms off a foot/knee/whatever, it's going to take a few seconds for the ball to be at Team B's disposal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

"at the disposal of the thrower" after a made basket is entirely up to the judgement of the official. That's why we make the big bucks.

Generally -- when the team has the ball OOB and is facing the court -- or could reasonably be expected to do so.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... when the team has the ball OOB and is facing the court, or could reasonably be expected to do so.

That's when I'm starting my five second count, and ignoring any requests by the scoring team for a timeout. If the NFHS wants to tell me I'm wrong, then I don't want to be right (with apologies to Luther Ingram).

[rjfxvii]

So, had a game this season with this same situation, with the only difference being the scoring team (the one with no timeouts) knocking the ball well out of the way in an attempt to prompt the delay of game warning--which stops the clock, because there was no other way they were going to be able to stop it. Do you go ahead and grant the delay of game warning, knowing that it's a gamesmanship situation, or do you ignore the violation because it's (in essence) rewarding them for their illegal act?

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by rjfxvii

So, had a game this season with this same situation, with the only difference being the scoring team (the one with no timeouts) knocking the ball well out of the way in an attempt to prompt the delay of game warning--which stops the clock, because there was no other way they were going to be able to stop it. Do you go ahead and grant the delay of game warning, knowing that it's a gamesmanship situation, or do you ignore the violation because it's (in essence) rewarding them for their illegal act?

Check out casebook 9.2.10.A... specifically, the comment following that case play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rjfxvii

So, had a game this season with this same situation, with the only difference being the scoring team (the one with no timeouts) knocking the ball well out of the way in an attempt to prompt the delay of game warning--which stops the clock, because there was no other way they were going to be able to stop it. Do you go ahead and grant the delay of game warning, knowing that it's a gamesmanship situation, or do you ignore the violation because it's (in essence) rewarding them for their illegal act?

How much time was remaining when the ball went through the basket?

If more than 5 seconds, administer as normal.

If 5 seconds or less, then no. If the new offensive team is actually trying to do the throw-in, then you call a technical foul. If the new offensive team is not trying to complete the throw-in, then you ignore the infraction and let the clock run.

The case play spells it out.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Generally -- when the team has the ball OOB and is facing the court -- or could reasonably be expected to do so.

I will slightly disagree. While this is probably the way we do it in practice most of the time...there are times I dont. I have seen way too many teams take too much time getting the ball, going OOB, and facing the Court, to avoid a press or take time to figure out the press... (or letting the ball bounce determining who is going to make a throw in while there is a press).

What do you do if its the team who was just scored on hit the ball and has to track it down? Do you call them for a delay of game warning? Or do you just start the 5 second count?

If they were trying to get it to another player OOB for the throw-in and their toss went errant. The ball was available when the player secured the ball? Do they get extra time because he couldn't get it to the inbound thrower correctly?

Clearly the intent of the rules is for the offense to make a prompt throw-in, not be able to run time unreasonably, give a fair playing field to those who want to press...

Not sure when the best time to start it but it may not be OOB facing the floor...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Not sure when the best time to start it but it may not be OOB facing the floor...

That's why I added "or could reasonably be expected to do so" -- and all of your examples fit under that umbrella.

[Rich]

Personally, I think the new lead at halfcourt should just call a 5-second violation.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Note: When do we ever (by the manual) hand the ball to the free thrower (see a. above)? I haven't done that for over thirty years. Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

To what manual are you referring? I do not believe that the CCA manual indicates anything about bouncing the ball to the shooter of a technical foul FT as it does other FTs.

Indeed, no one does it.

(I have done it twice and it was because the shooter (a captain) had quick questions. I handed him the ball and slowly retreated)

As far as the OP, NFHS case 6.1.2 sit B provides wording that indicates when a throw-in is available, all in the same language that we have used in this thread.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bucky

To what manual are you referring? I do not believe that the CCA manual indicates anything about bouncing the ball to the shooter of a technical foul FT as it does other FTs.

Indeed, no one does it.

(I have done it twice and it was because the shooter (a captain) had quick questions. I handed him the ball and slowly retreated)

As far as the OP, NFHS case 6.1.2 sit B provides wording that indicates when a throw-in is available, all in the same language that we have used in this thread.

Not that NFHS is different, but why are you referencing the CCA manual in a discussion of high school mechanics?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not that NFHS is different, but why are you referencing the CCA manual in a discussion of high school mechanics?

To illustrate that there is a manual, from a governing body, that does not dictate the ball be bounced to the FT shooter for Technical/Intentional fouls. Ergo, it could be the same for another governing body. Furthermore, I asked to get clarification as many, many posters reference more than one governing body without directly indicating it. lastly, I do not have my NFHS manual readily available and thought it easier just to ask

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I do not believe that the CCA manual indicates anything about bouncing the ball to the shooter of a technical foul FT as it does other FTs. Indeed, no one does it.

Originally Posted by bucky

To illustrate that there is a manual, from a governing body, that does not dictate the ball be bounced to the FT shooter for Technical/Intentional fouls.

According to the IAABO Two Person Manual, there is (by the book) no differentiation between administering technical foul free throws, intentional foul free throws, or any other type of free throw shooting situation. Two officials are involved in all free throw situations, the trail has his coverage responsibilities, and the lead has his coverage responsibilities, including bouncing the ball to the free throw shooter.

Note: Over thirty years ago there were many free throw shooting situations where the trail handed the ball to the free throw shooter, always from the shooter's left side, but that ancient mechanic went the way of the buggy whip.