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-   -   NFHS 5 second inbound count starting (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102422-nfhs-5-second-inbound-count-starting.html)

paulsonj72 Fri Mar 17, 2017 09:49pm

NFHS 5 second inbound count starting
 
After a made field goal when does the 5 second count for the ball to be inbounded. In a state qualifier in Minnesota tonight a team scored with about 6 seconds to go to cut the lead to 1 and was out of time outs. The team in the lead never inbounded the ball and won by 1. IIRC the count begins when the ball is placed at the disposal of the player throwing the ball inbounds and since there were less than 5 seconds left when this happened the game ended. Is this the proper way to handle the situation.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsonj72 (Post 1002750)
After a made field goal when does the 5 second count for the ball to be inbounded. In a state qualifier in Minnesota tonight a team scored with about 6 seconds to go to cut the lead to 1 and was out of time outs. The team in the lead never inbounded the ball and won by 1. IIRC the count begins when the ball is placed at the disposal of the player throwing the ball inbounds and since there were less than 5 seconds left when this happened the game ended. Is this the proper way to handle the situation.


I do not think that anyone can answer your question without seeing a video of the play.

MTD, Sr.

Coach Bill Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsonj72 (Post 1002750)
After a made field goal when does the 5 second count for the ball to be inbounded. In a state qualifier in Minnesota tonight a team scored with about 6 seconds to go to cut the lead to 1 and was out of time outs. The team in the lead never inbounded the ball and won by 1. IIRC the count begins when the ball is placed at the disposal of the player throwing the ball inbounds and since there were less than 5 seconds left when this happened the game ended. Is this the proper way to handle the situation.

Very risky for the inbounding team, unless their coach was watching the official's count. Easily could have had a violation with the opposing team having enough time to get off a shot. If behind, I would have tried to save a timeout for this situation, but if not, I would call timeout anyway, and hope for some misses.

bucky Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsonj72 (Post 1002750)
After a made field goal when does the 5 second count for the ball to be inbounded. In a state qualifier in Minnesota tonight a team scored with about 6 seconds to go to cut the lead to 1 and was out of time outs. The team in the lead never inbounded the ball and won by 1. IIRC the count begins when the ball is placed at the disposal of the player throwing the ball inbounds and since there were less than 5 seconds left when this happened the game ended. Is this the proper way to handle the situation.

There is no specific objective starting point. The count, as signaled by the administering official, begins when he/she feels that the ball is at the disposal of the inbounding team.

paulsonj72 Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1002752)
I do not think that anyone can answer your question without seeing a video of the play.

MTD, Sr.

Unfortunately(as far as I know)there is no video of the said play(or at least posted). The game was not televised so that makes it harder to find. :-(

Camron Rust Sat Mar 18, 2017 01:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1002754)
There is no specific objective starting point. The count, as signaled by the administering official, begins when he/she feels that the ball is at the disposal of the inbounding team.

That is entirely true. However, it is also true that it does not start as soon as the shot is made or even when a player catches or picks up the ball after falls from the basket. The throwing team should be given sufficient time to recover the ball and get into a position where they could make a legal throwin with it (OOB at the very minimum) before the count should start. Usually, that is 2-3 seconds unless the ball and players were not in a position to quickly get the ball and get OOB with it.

BillyMac Sat Mar 18, 2017 05:09am

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1002754)
There is no specific objective starting point.

True.

The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the
disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.


When is the ball available to the player?

Through the basket? On the floor? In the inbounder's hands inbounds? In the inbounder's hands out of bounds? In the inbounder's hands out of bounds facing the wall behind the basket? In the inbounder's hands out of bounds facing the court?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1002758)
... it does not start as soon as the shot is made or even when a player catches or picks up the ball after falls from the basket. The throwing team should be given sufficient time to recover the ball and get into a position where they could make a legal throwin with it (OOB at the very minimum) before the count should start.

For practical purposes, I agree with Camron Rust 100%, but that's not what the rule says.

Same issue for granting a timeout to the scoring team after a goal.

The ball becomes live when:
b. On a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.


At what point will the official not grant a timeout to the scoring team after a goal? When is the ball at the disposal of the player (available to the player)?

Ball on the floor? In the inbounder's hands inbounds? In the inbounder's hands out of bounds? In the inbounder's hands out of bounds facing the wall behind the basket?

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.O...=0&w=220&h=170

When does the official start counting? When the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder.

When is the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder? When the official starts counting.

Adam Sat Mar 18, 2017 09:02am

There's no way an official with any level of actual experience is going to start a count quickly enough to master when the team scored with 6 seconds left.

deecee Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:01am

Made shot with 6 seconds left, game is over if the other team inbounds it 99.999% of the time. It should be 100% but there are some officials who will try to be "cute" and "smart" and completely kick this.

Raymond Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1002753)
Very risky for the inbounding team, unless their coach was watching the official's count. Easily could have had a violation with the opposing team having enough time to get off a shot. If behind, I would have tried to save a timeout for this situation, but if not, I would call timeout anyway, and hope for some misses.

Well, some folks think we should ignore timeout requests when we know the team has no timeouts left. [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Camron Rust Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1002760)
When does the official start counting? When the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder.

When is the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder? When the official starts counting.

I'll add the following question...

On any other throw in administered by an official, when does the ball become available to the thrower? Does it start when we know they should have a throwin (on the infraction that stops the clock) or when we actually give them the ball OOB? If we bounce them the ball, does it start as we bounce them the ball or when they catch the ball?

BillyMac Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:17pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1002769)
On any other throw in administered by an official, when does the ball become available to the thrower? Does it start when we know they should have a throwin (on the infraction that stops the clock) or when we actually give them the ball OOB? If we bounce them the ball, does it start as we bounce them the ball or when they catch the ball?

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and ye shall find ... (Matthew 7:7)

4-4-7: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.


Now we just need a NFHS definition for "available to a player" (only for after a basket) and we're ready to rock and roll.

For the good of the cause: The nonshooting team can be granted a timeout before the bounced ball is caught by the free thrower.

The ball becomes live when: On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Note: When do we ever (by the manual) hand the ball to the free thrower (see a. above)? I haven't done that for over thirty years. Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

jTheUmp Sat Mar 18, 2017 03:48pm

"at the disposal of the thrower" after a made basket is entirely up to the judgement of the official. That's why we make the big bucks. :)

You'll never find a book interpretation of exactly how long that takes, because it can vary greatly... a if it goes through the hoop and is caught by a member of Team B, it's at their disposal within a second or so. If the ball takes a weird bounce or inadvertently caroms off a foot/knee/whatever, it's going to take a few seconds for the ball to be at Team B's disposal.

bob jenkins Sat Mar 18, 2017 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 1002777)
"at the disposal of the thrower" after a made basket is entirely up to the judgement of the official. That's why we make the big bucks. :)

Generally -- when the team has the ball OOB and is facing the court -- or could reasonably be expected to do so.

BillyMac Sat Mar 18, 2017 05:40pm

That's My Story And I'm Sticking To It ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1002789)
... when the team has the ball OOB and is facing the court, or could reasonably be expected to do so.

That's when I'm starting my five second count, and ignoring any requests by the scoring team for a timeout. If the NFHS wants to tell me I'm wrong, then I don't want to be right (with apologies to Luther Ingram).


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