Another backcourt question

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Whoa! Does batting a ball mean there was player control? Not for calling a timeout, but for calling a BC violation?

EDIT: As far as I can see in the rule book, batting a ball does not equal player control, so batting the ball into the BC in this situation is not a violation. I'd like to hear it from others, though.

Of course not -- and that's pfan's point. There was never a time when you would have granted a TO, so there was never PC in the front court, so there's no BC violation.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Of course not -- and that's pfan's point. There was never a time when you would have granted a TO, so there was never PC in the front court, so there's no BC violation.

I was watching football at the time, so I didn't consult the rule book for a while... hence the edit.

I just wondered if the exemption saying the ball could go into the BC due to a tipped ball, meant that the player that tipped the ball had no sort of control of it. A player "batting" a ball leads me to believe that he directed the ball into the backcourt on purpose.

Like on a previously mentioned play, where the difference between a try or tap for goal before the expiration of time, and a tipped ball before the expiration of of time, on a made basket.

Kind of playing devil's advocate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

... where the difference between a try or tap for goal ....

I believe that a try, and a tap, are treated the same for the purposes of scoring points, fouls in the act, etc. (although it hasn't always been that way).

Batting the ball is usually construed to mean no player control.

Apples and oranges.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe that a try, and a tap, are treated the same for the purposes of scoring points, fouls in the act, etc. (although it hasn't always been that way).

Batting the ball is usually construed to mean no player control.

If a player "batted" a ball towards the basket before time expires, and the ball enters the basket after time expires, would you count the basket?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If a player "batted" a ball towards the basket before time expires, and the ball enters the basket after time expires, would you count the basket?

Yes.

4-41-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as
in 5-2-5. (three tenths of a second or less).

[BillyMac]

Player saves a ball that a teammate throws toward a boundary. The player's momentum takes him out of bounds. The ball remains inbounds and the player returns inbounds, picks up the ball with two hands, and dribbles the ball.

Legal if he tapped, or tipped, or batted, the ball (no player control).

Illegal if he caught the ball with one hand, and controlled it's trajectory back onto the court (player control).

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes.

4-41-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as
in 5-2-5. (three tenths of a second or less).

Okay, so "batting" a ball is the same as a "try", hence it was in a player's control. I know the terminology I'm using is suspect, but the point is the ball was purposely batted into the backcourt. Let's see if I can explain it like a case play...

A1 in-bounds the ball to A2, who is standing in Team A's frontcourt. A2, seeing that a defender is closing in on him, knows he needs to do something to avoid a steal, so he bats the ball to the only open teammate he sees... A3, who happens to be standing in the backcourt.

From what's been said this is not a violation. However, the fact that A2 purposely batted the ball to A3 indicates a pass... and therefore some form of control.

The intent of the "tip" rule during an in-bounds play seems to be in reference to the ball accidentally being tipped into the backcourt, not purposely batted into the backcourt.

Am I making sense?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Am I making sense?

Yes you are.

After a throwin, if the ball is tipped, tapped, or batted, even on purpose, to a backcourt teammate, there was never player control in the frontcourt, and thus, no backcourt violation.

If, on the other hand, after a throwin, if the ball caught with one hand, and it's trajectory is controlled to a backcourt teammate, there has been player control in the frontcourt, and thus, this is a backcourt violation.

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Okay, so "batting" a ball is the same as a "try", hence it was in a player's control.

Not necessarily. Slow down big fella.

If a player tips, taps, or bats, the ball into the basket from a pass, or a rebound, or a throwin, then said player never had player control (although he can be charged with player control foul if he was an airborne shooter: 4-19-6: A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a player while he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter.)

[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Of course not -- and that's pfan's point. There was never a time when you would have granted a TO, so there was never PC in the front court, so there's no BC violation.

Yup!

[bob jenkins]

Somewhere there is (or was) a rule to the effect that "batting a ball away from other players is not PC" (or maybe it said "is not part of a dribble").

Apply that to teh "bat into the back court" discussion