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Old Sun Nov 01, 2015, 12:13pm
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The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules - Part II ...

A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away, or duck, to absorb contact, provided he, or she, has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court, and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards, or sideways, to maintain a legal guarding position, and may even have one or both feet off the floor when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and does not constitute a foul. Contact, which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive, or offensive moves, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe. Contact which does not hinder an opponent from participating in normal defensive, or offensive, movements should be considered incidental.

A ten-second count continues when the defense deflects, or bats, the ball in the backcourt. When a dribbler is advancing the ball into the frontcourt, the ball maintains backcourt status until both feet, and the ball, touch entirely in the frontcourt.

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations.

During a throwin, or jump ball, any player; or a defensive player, in making a steal; may legally jump from his, or her, frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one, or both, feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing, and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt, or the backcourt. These three situations are not backcourt violations.

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler: holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his, or her, head, and shoulders, ahead of the defender.

The intent of the three-second rule is to not allow an offensive player in the lane to gain an advantage. There is no three-second count between the release of a shot, and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts. There is no three-second count during a throwin. There is no three-second count while the ball is in the backcourt. There is a three-second count during an interrupted dribble. There is a three-second count while an offensive player has one foot in the lane, and one foot outside of the lane, and the three-second count continues if this player lifts the foot in the lane so that neither foot is touching inside the lane. To stop the count this player must have both feet touch the court outside of the lane. It’s a violation for a player to step out of bounds in an attempt to avoid a three second violation. Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in, or moves immediately to try for goal.

The head coach may request, and be granted, a timeout if his, or her, player is holding, or dribbling, the ball; or during a dead ball period. A player saving the ball in the air can ask for, and be granted, a timeout even if that player is going out of bounds. The key is whether, or not, the player has control of the ball.

On free throws, there is a maximum of two offensive players, and four defensive players, in the six marked lane spaces. The defense must be in the first marked lane spaces, above the neutral zone marks, on all free throws. The offense must not occupy the first marked lane spaces, above the neutral zone marks. For free throws when there are no rebounders in the marked lane spaces, i.e. technical fouls, and intentional fouls, the nine nonshooters shall remain behind the free throw line extended, and behind the three point arc.

Players in marked lane spaces must not move into the lane until the ball is released by the free-throw shooter. The shooter, and the players behind the three point arc, must wait until the ball hits the rim, or the backboard, before entering the lane, or penetrating the three point arc. On release of the ball by the free thrower, the defender boxing out the free thrower shall not cross the free-throw line until the ball contacts the ring, or the backboard. In addition, the free throw shooter must cause the ball to enter the basket, or touch the ring, before the free throw ends. During a free throw, no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower.

A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Action of arms, and elbows, resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or moving to prevent a held ball, or loss of control, shall not be considered excessive. It is a violation for a player to excessively swing his, or her, arms, or elbows, even without contacting an opponent.

Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg, or foot. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes, and who recovers it. It is also illegal to hit the ball with a fist.

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exceptions) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

Players may not participate while wearing jewelry. Religious medals, or medical alert medals, are not considered jewelry. A religious medal must be taped, and worn under the uniform. A medical alert medal must be taped, and may be visible.

Headbands, wristbands, sleeves, and tights, shall be the solid color black, white, beige, or the predominant color of the jersey, and the same color for each item, and all participants. Anything worn on the arm, and/or the leg (except a knee brace), is defined as a sleeve. Only a single item may be worn on the head (with no extensions), and/or on each wrist. Sweatbands must be worn below the elbow. Rubber, cloth, or elastic bands, of any color, may be used to control hair. Undershirts must be similar in color to the uniform jersey, and shall not have frayed, or ragged edges.

Officials are not required to explain judgment calls, but they may explain some calls if approached by the head coach in a respectful manner. Officials have been instructed to call technical fouls for profanity, unsporting acts, excessive complaints, or verbal abuse.

Officials are on the court to be the only unbiased arbiters of the game. Officials are not concerned with who wins, or loses, but only fairness, and safety. Everyone else in that gym cares about winning, and therefore, cannot look at the game objectively. Players commit fouls, and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.

Revised 10/3/15
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 01, 2015 at 12:31pm.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 01:26pm
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Thank you! I appreciated going through each of these. Had some real food for thought, especially around backcourt violations as it pertains to throw ins.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations. These three situations are not backcourt violations.
I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....
The requirement for "player control inbounds" has not been met in either case.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The requirement for "player control inbounds" has not been met in either case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The throw-in ending does not mean you have possession in the FC which is required for a violation for a BC to take place. Touching or tipping the ball does not establish possession.
The rule for backcourt does not dictate player control inbounds. It says "A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

Per 4-12-2, a team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

So we have team control during a throw-in, a pass which is still team control, a tip in the front court by the offense which means the ball has front court location ("A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court."). All the elements of backcourt are present.

On a shot, I can see what you all are saying. There is indeed no team control. No so for a throw-in....
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
The rule for backcourt does not dictate player control inbounds. It says "A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

Per 4-12-2, a team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

So we have team control during a throw-in, a pass which is still team control, a tip in the front court by the offense which means the ball has front court location ("A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court."). All the elements of backcourt are present.

On a shot, I can see what you all are saying. There is indeed no team control. No so for a throw-in....
The NFHS has put out correspondence stating TC on a throw-in is only for the purposes of adjudicated fouls during the throw-in. It is not "true" TC.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 03:39pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
The NFHS has put out correspondence stating TC on a throw-in is only for the purposes of adjudicated fouls during the throw-in. It is not "true" TC.
If that is the case, then that would be the missing link. Thank you!
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
If that is the case, then that would be the missing link. Thank you!
Yes, that is the case. The rule is an absolute mess, but it is what it is. Until team control has been established on the playing court (a player holding or dribbling a live ball), a BC violation is not possible.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 06:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
If that is the case, then that would be the missing link. Thank you!
4-19-7 is the definition of team control foul. It says in part that it is a team control foul if the throw in team fouls from the start of the throw in until player control is established inbounds. As noted by BNR, it is only there because they dont want the throw in team shooting free throws if it commits a foul prior to the ball being possessed.

This is a completely separate animal from team control inbounds. Once the ball is in control of a player somewhere inbounds team control in the court/inbounds begins. Until that happens backcourt issues/violations do not come in to play.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 03:44pm
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You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:

Quote:
Article 1:
A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the front court, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

If you read your own reference in 4-12-2a, that says:

Quote:
When a player of a team is in control of the ball.
Ending a throw-in does not automatically establish TC or even player control.

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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

If you read your own reference in 4-12-2a, that says:



Ending a throw-in does not automatically establish TC or even player control.

Peace
Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

Last edited by OKREF; Wed Nov 04, 2015 at 04:09pm.
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Old Thu Nov 05, 2015, 10:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.
Rut, what are you missing? You said this. The case play refutes what you are saying. It can be possible to have TC in FC without a player actually possessing the basketball, but not on a throw in, but in the case play it is possible.

I understand that the original question was about a throw in, but your blanket statement is only half right. You need to re-read my original post. I said that the case play didn't apply to a throw in.

Last edited by OKREF; Thu Nov 05, 2015 at 10:22pm.
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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 02:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....
The throw-in ending does not mean you have possession in the FC which is required for a violation for a BC to take place. Touching or tipping the ball does not establish possession. And on a shot if the ball is tipped and tapped around does not establish control in either part of the court. The rule states possession, has to be established in the FC then be the first to touch in the BC after you were the last to touch in the FC. You are buying into the very myth that this point is trying to get you and others out of thinking is the rule.

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Old Wed Nov 04, 2015, 02:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....
There are four things that must happen in order to have a backcourt violation. You're missing the big one, which others have alluded to.

The backcourt and team control rules are poorly written and have caused headaches for those on this forum, including myself. However, the NFHS has made clear that, despite what the rule may or may not say, that team control must have been established inbounds in order to have a BC violation.

Last edited by bballref3966; Wed Nov 04, 2015 at 02:40pm.
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