Continuous Motion/Traveling

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

my point is that there are many times that we dont know if the foul was in the act until we see what happens next. Assume im dribbling from wing down middle of paint and Camron is wide open in corner for three. i begin to raise ball, then contact. At that moment you dont know if im going to shoot the layup or pass to Camron. contact was minimal and i pass the ball to Cameron never looking at goal. i would not award 2 shots because even though i could have been in the act, the rest of the playh showed i wasnt intending to shoot.

in this case there is contact. is the player shooting at that moment? he isnt releasing the ball so we have to continue watching. he takes two more steps and then throws it up. clearly beyond legal foot movements. that tells me he wasnt shooting at time of foul.

There shouldn't be "many times" that this happens. In fact, we should make that decision at the time of the foul every time.

And, FED has a case where a foul while shooting followed by a pass is still a foul while shooting.

Sometimes we need to officiate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FED has a case where a foul while shooting followed by a pass is still a foul while shooting.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would love to see this citation.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would love to see this citation.

the last sentence of 4-41-2 (i think) says that it is not "essential" that the player release the ball because the foul may have prevented the release. he may be referring to an interp but i don't recall a specific play in the case book. maybe there is one..

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

the last sentence of 4-41-2 (i think) says that it is not "essential" that the player release the ball because the foul may have prevented the release. he may be referring to an interp but i don't recall a specific play in the case book. maybe there is one..

4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

Also, the rule points out that it is necessary for an official to use judgment to make a decision as to whether, or not, the player is throwing, or attempting to throw, for goal.

Nice citation. Thanks BigCat. One can't argue with this rule. Always listen to bob. It's good judgment, and good decisions, that allow basketball officials to get paid the big bucks. That's how I paid for my villa in Tuscany. If any Forum members are ever in Tuscany, be sure to stop by and say "Hello".

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

Also, the rule points out that it is necessary for an official to use judgment to make a decision as to whether, or not, the player is throwing, or attempting to throw, for goal.

Nice citation. Thanks BigCat. One can't argue with this rule. Always listen to bob.

Thx Billy. I knew if i cited the rule you'd post it for me I'm not talking about the situation when the foul causes a player to dump/pass the ball or hold onto it. That's a shooting foul, 2 shots all day. I'm talking about the situation when the foul has no effect on the offensive player, minimal contact or even 'Phantom" call.

A player can be taking the ball up to shoot or pass. I think of 2 on 1 situation. i have the ball and pick it up…begin upward movement….phantom whistle. At that moment i meet the technical definition of 'in the act" but the same movements are necessary for a pass. ---Im interpreting others to say that the referee must freeze the situation at that moment and determine if it is a pass or shot. i believe that's a guess. If the player, a split second later follows through and dumps the ball to the teammate why would i not consider that? When you look at the whole play it looks clear that he was passing the ball. Again, if you freeze it while the player is taking the ball up i believe it is a guess.

Finally, if they didn't want you to consider what happens to the ball after contact there would be no need to mention the last sentence about the foul preventing the release of the ball. The inference is that if the foul has no effect on the play the player should shoot the ball.

We must decide what the player was doing at the time of contact but I believe we can and must look at what happens immediately thereafter….

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... determine if it is a pass or shot. i believe that's a guess. If the player, a split second later follows through and dumps the ball to the teammate why would i not consider that? When you look at the whole play it looks clear that he was passing the ball. ... We must decide what the player was doing at the time of contact but I believe we can and must look at what happens immediately thereafter….

It's not just a guess, it's an educated guess based on, in my case, thirty-four years of observing such plays, and the immediate aftermath of such plays. Am I right 100% of the time on such plays? No. But, I bet that I come up with the correct decision almost all the time. And, it's a decision that I always sell ("That's a shot", "That's a pass", "No shot"). It's never a wishy-washy call for me. Any semblance of doubt in my call would always invite criticism from the coaches.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's not just a guess, it's an educated guess based on, in my case, thirty-four years of observing such plays, and the immediate aftermath of such plays. Am I right 100% of the time on such plays? No. But, I bet that I come up with the correct decision almost all the time. And, it's a decision that I always sell ("That's a shot", "That's a pass", "No shot"). It's never a wishy-washy call for me. Any semblance of doubt in my call would always invite criticism from the coaches.

You are looking at the play and the "immediate aftermath." that is what i am saying. I'm not going to freeze everything at the moment of contact or the moment the whistle is blown. No matter how many years we've done this there are times when we need to keep looking at the play to determine what the player was doing at the time of the whistle.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

there shouldn't be "many times" that this happens. In fact, we should make that decision at the time of the foul every time.

And, fed has a case where a foul while shooting followed by a pass is still a foul while shooting.

Sometimes we need to officiate.

thank you!

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There shouldn't be "many times" that this happens. In fact, we should make that decision at the time of the foul every time.

And, FED has a case where a foul while shooting followed by a pass is still a foul while shooting.

Sometimes we need to officiate.

A foul while shooting and then a pass, because of the foul is a shooting foul....as i said long ago. The question is ---was/is the player "in the act" at the time of contact. If you make that determination at the moment of contact then you , in my humble opinion, are not "officiating" as you said to me above. The ball moving upward can be a shot or a pass. As i said, i will error on side of shot but i will wait to see what happens next.

you are in effect declaring that any upward movement with the ball is a shot. that is not officiating...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A foul while shooting and then a pass, because of the foul is a shooting foul....as i said long ago. The question is ---was/is the player "in the act" at the time of contact. If you make that determination at the moment of contact then you , in my humble opinion, are not "officiating" as you said to me above. The ball moving upward can be a shot or a pass. As i said, i will error on side of shot but i will wait to see what happens next.

you are in effect declaring that any upward movement with the ball is a shot. that is not officiating...

Not going to rehash this all again, but no, any upward movement is not automatically a shot. You have to officiate the play and make a decision. You base the decision on what you feel the player was doing (or trying to do) at the time of the foul. What happens next is not part of that decision. That is what the FED has specified.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... any upward movement is not automatically a shot. You have to officiate the play and make a decision. You base the decision on what you feel the player was doing (or trying to do) at the time of the foul.

Agree. It's not in any mechanics manual, but, on the close calls, once I come to that decision, I immediately announce it, loudly, at the site of the foul, "That's a shot", "That's a pass", or "No shot". I do this immediately, and loudly, at the site of the foul, because I don't want my partner, the players, the fans, and, especially, the coaches, to be surprised by my decision while I'm reporting to the table.

[crosscountry55]

Actually, while I would agree what you put in red is a false generalization, I don't think it's that far from the truth.

In the last year I've been trying to pay closer attention to when continuous motion begins, probably because I know that NCAAM officials have a tougher standard these days (what with how the "gather" and "upward motion" are determined and all). Seems like every time I make a call in the gray area and put the ball out of bounds, the critique I get is that he was in the act of shooting and that I should have put him on the line. So I would tend to agree that the general consensus is, "if it's even remotely close, err on the side of continuous motion."

[SNIPERBBB]

In Ohio, they want us to say that if the player has gathered the ball, it is the beginning of the habitual motion of a shot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

In Ohio, they want us to say that if the player has gathered the ball, it is the beginning of the habitual motion of a shot.

Except that isn't always enough. What if they gather the ball in the backcourt, 75 feet from the basket? Or they're heading towards the the corner and not the basket in order make a bounce pass to a teammate cutting along the endline?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

In Ohio, they want us to say that if the player has gathered the ball, it is the beginning of the habitual motion of a shot.

That just isn't true all the time