Catch/Appeal

[SAump]

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

[TussAgee11]

I'd say ignore if not spoken to directly, and if spoken to directly, find a way to answer vaguely.

"So?" "Okay..." seem like appropriate responses, ONLY WHEN SPOKEN TO DIRECTLY.

Once you get past that initial response, I'm sure coach will yell at his players to execute the appeal legally.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

Totally unrelated to situation here since you are asking about a live ball appeal. However, if asked by players I will reserve comment and turn and look into the dugout at the head coach. If he is savvy he will either instruct players or call time to come out and discuss. If he asks the right questions during dead ball discussion he will get the right answers. If he does not I will not lead him to do so.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

My answer is generally some variation on "I can't rule on that until you make a proper appeal." I give that answer whether or not the baserunner erred.

Two exceptions:

Number 1) IF there are no runners still on base, I might just say that the runner touched the base (assuming he did so, of course). It avoids delaying the game for what will by definition be an unsuccessful appeal, and the offense can't gain from the defense throwing the ball away during an attempt at an appeal.

Number b) In FED ball, in a blow out game, or with no runners on base, I might just say, "Time -- coach, what are you trying to do?" and then rule on the appeal.

[tcarilli]

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

Different appeal. The first is a "leaving early" appeal and the second is a failure to retouch required bases on an award appeal. If that wouldn't be upheld, there would never be a reason to retouch on a ball thrown into DBT.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

Two things:

1) An "err" on a continuous action appeal doesn't negate the right to further appeals after the ball again becomes live. An "err" on a "relaxed action" appeal does negate that right.

2) In FED, the defense can continue to appeal eve if they throw the ball out of play on the first (relaxed action) appeal.

[tcarilli]

What is the reference for that (ie relaxed vs. not relaxed).

What is the difference between a retouch and a "leaving early." We aren't including 2nd base in any of this, yes? If so, leave it out. I am only concerned with the retouch of first.

[johnnyg08]

I think relaxed vs not relaxed is J/R terminology.

The difference between retouch and "leaving early" is I think two different terms. Retouch = "Tag up" and Leaving Early is leaving early...the point of this thread is that even if the ball is thrown out of play or into DBT (dead ball territory) on a caught fly ball, even though there is a base award the runner is still obiligated to "tag up" prior to his base award and if he advances to and touches 3B if he started on 1B, he loses the right to retouch 1B and may be called out on appeal. (that's my understanding anyway.) for OBR rules.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I think relaxed vs not relaxed is J/R terminology.

The difference between retouch and "leaving early" is I think two different terms. Retouch = "Tag up" and Leaving Early is leaving early...the point of this thread is that even if the ball is thrown out of play or into DBT (dead ball territory) on a caught fly ball, even though there is a base award the runner is still obiligated to "tag up" prior to his base award and if he advances to and touches 3B if he started on 1B, he loses the right to retouch 1B and may be called out on appeal. (that's my understanding anyway.) for OBR rules.

Yes it is Jaksa/Roder, but that is not the way I understand the context. One does not need to retouch (absent a foul ball) unless the ball is caught and the runner has left early.

Yes I understand that he is obligated to retouch first on the award, but he has to retouch because he left early, that is why the defense is appealing in the first place.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

What is the reference for that (ie relaxed vs. not relaxed).

It's in many of the reference material. Here's one:

PBUC 2009 Updates, 3.4J (it's essentially the same play as being discussed here, ecxcept F5 throws the ball out of play attempting to "double up" R1); Doesn't the act of the third baseman throwing the ball out of play nullify a succeeding appeal attempt? That is, hasn't the defense erred on its first attempt to appeal? rULING: nO. thE WILD THROW BY THE THIRD BASEMAN IS PART OF THE CONTINUOUS ACTION CREATED BY THE BATTER HITTING THE BALL ABD DOES NBOT NULLIFY A SUBSEQUENT APPEAL AFTER THE CONTINUOUS ACTION HAS ENDED.

(Apolgies for the caps)

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

I see this all the time in LL. I just say, "The ball is dead." With arms folded.

[tcarilli]

Thanks Bob.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

I see this all the time in LL. I just say, "The ball is dead." With arms folded.

I would not say that, as it might suggest to the ignorati that the defense cannot appeal.

If asked whether they should appeal, I usually reply: "I can't answer that question." If asked whether they can appeal, I usually reply: "You can always appeal."