Catch/Appeal

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

are you sure coach JM? wouldn't 3B be his next base? This part of appeals is confusing to me between the rule sets

JM has the correct answer.

In FED, a runner cannot legally retouch if he is on of byond his "advance base" WHEN the ball becomes dead. (And, yes, somewhere in the rules, there's an exception to prevent a smart F9 from intentionally throwing the ball out of play to "trap" R1 who has advanced to far.)

In OBR, a runner cannot legally retouch if he continues to advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead.

So, in zm1283's play (R1 between second and third when the ball goes dead, but returns to first): In FED, let him run, but call him out on appeal if the defense appeals his failure to tag up at first. IF the defense doesn't appeal, leave him at third.

In OBR, the retouch is legal, so any appeal at first would be denied. The runner is awarded third. (MLBUM has it as something like, the runner is first awarded home, then the award is changed to third if R1 retoouches first.)

[johnnyg08]

makes sense fellas...thank you...hope I never see it.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, in zm1283's play (R1 between second and third when the ball goes dead, but returns to first): In FED, let him run, but call him out on appeal if the defense appeals his failure to tag up at first. IF the defense doesn't appeal, leave him at third.

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by zm1283

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

Good question. Is it that he would be called out if he tried to go retouch first or, it makes no difference? It is a strange rule.

[johnnyg08]

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

How does he have a retouch obligation if he isn't allowed to retouch the base in the first place?

Have I mentioned that I HATE FED rules?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

In both FED and OBR it's initially two bases from where you are positioned at the time of the throw. It's only after the re-touch (if made) that you adjust the award.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by zm1283

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Watch him do it.

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

Not in FED, no. Just award third and let the rest play itself out.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Watch him do it.



Not in FED, no. Just award third and let the rest play itself out.

So if he retouches, it's up to the defense to figure out that he can't retouch and then appeal?

Why do you only award third? FED rule/casebook reference?

[BretMan]

FED rule is 8-3-5.

[SAump]

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

[TussAgee11]

I'd say ignore if not spoken to directly, and if spoken to directly, find a way to answer vaguely.

"So?" "Okay..." seem like appropriate responses, ONLY WHEN SPOKEN TO DIRECTLY.

Once you get past that initial response, I'm sure coach will yell at his players to execute the appeal legally.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

Totally unrelated to situation here since you are asking about a live ball appeal. However, if asked by players I will reserve comment and turn and look into the dugout at the head coach. If he is savvy he will either instruct players or call time to come out and discuss. If he asks the right questions during dead ball discussion he will get the right answers. If he does not I will not lead him to do so.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

My answer is generally some variation on "I can't rule on that until you make a proper appeal." I give that answer whether or not the baserunner erred.

Two exceptions:

Number 1) IF there are no runners still on base, I might just say that the runner touched the base (assuming he did so, of course). It avoids delaying the game for what will by definition be an unsuccessful appeal, and the offense can't gain from the defense throwing the ball away during an attempt at an appeal.

Number b) In FED ball, in a blow out game, or with no runners on base, I might just say, "Time -- coach, what are you trying to do?" and then rule on the appeal.

[tcarilli]

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.