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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2007, 08:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I wish that there was more decency from a few people on this board. Tim stands out in my mind the most, but also Ozzy and a number of others bring really poor attitudes to these boards.
I think that if you're willing to just listen to what some of the more grizzled vets of this board have to say you'll find them to be a great bunch of guys. It's ironic that you'd mention the two members you just did as ones with bad attitudes. When I first came here they were all over me for posting dumb garbage. Now, along with Steve they're the ones I consult with the most on issues away from the forum. I've yet to have any one of them not give me an encouraging word when needed or a kick in the arse if that's what they felt was warranted. Just hang in there and you'll see what I mean.


Tim.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2007, 08:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I wish that there was more decency from a few people on this board. Tim stands out in my mind the most, but also Ozzy and a number of others bring really poor attitudes to these boards.
Yeah, both those guys post in the nude.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2007, 10:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
I work ONLY for money . . . be it my job or umpiring ("the money" is followed closely by "the power").

It is odd for me to see someone tell me "my motivation" for working . . .

Again Don, we see umpiring (and now the world) differently.

Is there no question left why we are on opposite ends of every issue?

Regards,

BTW, I would STILL have a cold adult beverage with you.

So more power to you Tee. If you won't do something unless you are paid, that's your choice.

But there are multitudes that do not subscribe to that position and they are not lesser people for being different.

We have a youth "baseball" program consisting, this year, of 27 Little League baseball teams, five girls softball teams, and four "teener" baseball teams. All volunteer.

Our league started in 1952 and has operated continuously and successfully ever since. And in all that time, not one person be it administrator, concession operations, coaches, or umpires has ever been paid one red cent. Yet people continue to volunteer their time and give their money to support the program. I'm glad we have people who will work for something other than money.

And Tee, we're not alone. There are thousands upon thousands of volunteer organizations around the country who thrive because there are people willing to DONATE their time and efforts to the success of whatever their program is.

And, Tee, "different" and "wrong" are not synonyms. Accept people's motivation for what it is and don't reject them or look upon them with disdain because their motivation is not what you wish it to be or thnk it should be.
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Last edited by Rich Ives; Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:23pm.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2007, 10:33pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M
13 Year old Babe Ruth game on Sunday. Every time team A had a man on base the team B pitcher, who looked like he had little or no pitching experience, was balking (not coming to a stop) on every pitch. Team A had no problem stealing so I let the balks go and told the team B coach after the first inning. Fast forward to the 7th inning. The game is relatively close (3 or 4 runs) when I hear the coach of team B complaining about the team A pitcher not coming to a stop.

The lessons learned are that no one gets a break and that no good deed goes unpunished.
You started this 80 post (so far) diatribe about rats with this seemingly harmless post. Let me offer a suggestion for the next game where a young 13 year pitcher of little or no experience will not come to a stop.

After the half inning approach the HC, tell him his pitcher is not coming to a stop when runners are on base, ie a balk. You haven't called it because it is obvious that he his young and inexperienced and doesn't know any better. But this is an easy thing to instruct so you expect him to do so before he takes the mound again and if the pitcher will not come to a stop in the next inning you are going to balk him every time. A 13 year old should be able to understand STOP, otherwise he will never be a good pitcher.

If they are stealing so easily you may be actually saving time to balk the runner to 2B than letting the play go on. And, if the pitcher will STOP, for different amounts of time, it should lead to less steal attempts.

Give the other HC the same discussion if deserving and then there will be no need for the 7th inning complaint and you will have saved some future umpire a pain also.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2007, 10:38pm
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Off the field admission...

I'd never even think this on the field. But I understand why rats hate umpires. Its the attitudes that have been evident on baseball fields, and quite frankly, threads like these. But at the same time, I understand why umpires hate rats, because quite frankly, I hate most of them all the time, and all of them when I'm on the field. As a fellow member of this board told me today, quoting Mark Hirschbeck: "Squash 'em all like F***ing bugs".

What concerns me is that the next time I go umpire a game, a coach that has read this thread, or experienced similar conjecture or attitudes from umpires in the past (which certainly has happened), will lump me, the umpire, into a larger group of egotistical maniac umpires who hate all coaches as openly as we see in this thread (I do hate all coaches while on the field, but I keep that secret to myself). So now my day at the field has been made harder by other umpires, in a very similar way that it is made harder when the umpire in a team's previous game misapplied a rule and when I make the correct ruling I get a s***storm. The coach stereotypes all umpires the same way umpires stereotype all coaches.

Who cares what came first? Coaches hating umpires, or umpires hating coaches? Its a part of the game, seperate yourself from this nonsense of worrying about it, and go call the game. And be ready to "squash em like bugs" if neccessary.

Last edited by TussAgee11; Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 07:18am.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2007, 11:27pm
DG DG is offline
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I don't hate coaches. I was one once (12 years). I understand their motivations for arguments, and sometimes their frustrations. I think it is a plus to have once been a coach. Their arguments don't bother me. I know I can get rid of them if I need to. I don't hold grudges.

I know some coaches who never argue. If these coaches come out there is a 90% chance you screwed the call. But they will discuss calmly and hear what you have to say and go back to the dugout without busting a chair up or thowing one 50 feet. And then there are coaches who come out when you know darn well the call was an easy one and you wonder why they are there to argue.

I am not aware of a coach who hates me and I certainly don't hate any coach I know. There are some I admire and respect and some I am wary of, but none I hate.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 01:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mueller
If there were no teams, no coaches, no players how many assignors would be calling you?
I don't want to argue over who the customer is in the umpire world, that wasn't my point, but I think you are naive if you think the assignor is your ultimate customer.
Don I work three sports, two of them I work college ball and I have yet to answer to any coach about anything. Most supervisors I work for have expectations and when you meet those expectations; they tend to support you to coaches. I also have never been hired in a conference because a coach liked me. I have been around the block and I have had some very serious conflicts with some coaches over the years only to have the supervisor completely support me. Why? Because I followed procedures and expectations of the supervisor I am currently working for. Coaches have agendas and they will get mad about anything that does not go their way. When you follow common procedures or rules, the supervisor can easily support you. So you can say the coach is the customer, but not if you know what the hell you are doing they are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mueller
I feel sad for anyone whose only motivation is money, no matter what the business.
But you see my point even if you don't recognize it.
If all or most of the people within the enviorment in which you practiced your trade were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers why would any one want to voluntarily stay in that enviorment? Unless of course you were a social worker.
I do not feel sorry for anyone that works for money. Money pays bills, buys things like houses and cars and puts people through college and might even help fun a business. So a lot of people will put up with a lot of things because there is money as apart of deal. I know I would not work many places unless the pay is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mueller
I don't think you were the one saying all coaches were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers. So unless the shoe fits perhaps my point isn't directed or meant for you and therefore does not resonate with you.
Do not police officers deal with those kinds of people every day, but they still love their jobs right? I really do not know why you are so stuck on the opinion people have about coaches. Just because many think coaches are scoundrels, does not take away from the enjoyment of our job. I do not trust many coaches but that just means I know who and what I am dealing with when things do not go their way. I do not trust most coaches and know that when things do not go their way they will try to whine, complain and even tell me how to do my job. Then I have responses for all those things. And if I cannot get them to understand they are stepping out of line, they will not be around. Then I do not have to worry about what they think for the rest of the day.

I even know as an official that I will have to work with other officials that I do not like. If I was so worried about what everyone thought I would just stay at home all day and every day.

Peace
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 01:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
I'd never even think this on the field. But I understand why rats hate umpires. Its the attitudes that have been evident on baseball fields, and quite frankly, threads like these.
More to come........

Quote:

But at the same time, I understand why umpires hate rats, because quite frankly, I hate most of them all the time, and all of them when I'm on the field. As a fellow member of this board told me today, quoting Mark Hirshbeck: "Squash 'em all like F***ing bugs".
Quite frankly, more to come...

Quote:

What concerns me is that the next time I go umpire a game, a coach that has read this thread, or experienced similar conjecture or attitudes from umpires in the past (which certainly has happened), will lump me, the umpire, into a larger group of egotistical maniac umpires who hate all coaches as openly as we see in this thread (I do hate all coaches while on the field, but I keep that secret to myself).
But if the coaches you memntion are reading this thread and you think that your secret is secret...forget it, more to come...

Quote:

So now my day at the field has been made harder by other umpires, in a very similar way that it is made harder when the umpire in a team's previous game misapplied a rule and when I make the correct ruling I get a s***storm. The coach stereotypes all umpires the same way umpires stereotype all coaches.
Imagine that (psst) your secret is secret with me...unless coaches are reading this and...forget it, more to come....

Quote:

Who cares what came first? Coaches hating umpires, or umpires hating coaches? Its a part of the game, seperate yourself from this nonsense of worrying about it, and go call the game. And be ready to "squash em like bugs" if neccessary.
Sounder advice in a post I have never been more confused over.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 01:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
I don't hate coaches.
I am not aware of a coach who hates me and I certainly don't hate any coach I know. There are some I admire and respect and some I am wary of, but none I hate.
Sir, we will have none of that sane talk about the real world that few on this "I hate Rats" forum will admit to.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 02:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceholleran
I didn't get the whole "rat" thing my first few years of umpiring.

I had this misguided "be a nice guy--no one will get mad at you" notion, until someone set me straight. He was a local guy who had umped about four seasons of organized ball.

He basically said what some of you have iterated: They will bend you, cajole you, suck up to you and [bleep] you at every turn.

Here's a great example: Big game, tightly contested, then things turn sour for the Weasels one inning, and their ace allows 3-4 runs.

After the inning, I (PU) am standing on the foul line, all by my lonesome. The Weasels' manager sidles up to me, all nice like.

"Jeeze," he says, "that kid [his pitcher] hasn't had that bad an inning all year. He's a nice kid."

So, like a dope, I answer him in kind. "Yeah, skip. He looked good to me the first coupla innings, and then he just seemed to lose it for a few batters."

Suddenly, Rattus changes his tone of voice. "And your lousy strike zone ain't helpin' him neither."

QED.

Ace in CT
Here's another viewpoint. You have learned that people are systematically dishonest. Wow. "Welcome to the world, won't you come on in."

Look at this forum, the dishonesty and the disingenuity is a perfect study in human nature.

Oh, I can hear the Forum Elite (100,000 post Members and their Poodle Pups) bleating about their honesty..all the "rats" are the dishonest ones.

When Mr. Rattus said what he said, you had two choices. Be hurt over the fact that he was being dishonest ( a truly irrational view of humans) or be comfortable and adjust. Don't stop having these talks, coaches with agendas are everywhere. Because if you are realistic, you are also prepared.

"Coach, here I thought we were good buddies. I suppose there is no use in speaking to each other again. It would be too painful. Understood?"
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 07:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
Yeah, both those guys post in the nude.
Well Tee does but I keep my G-string on when I post!
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 07:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I wish that there was more decency from a few people on this board. Tim stands out in my mind the most, but also Ozzy and a number of others bring really poor attitudes to these boards.
Heh, heh, heh!
A poor attitude is better than no attitude at all!

As I said once before, if you hate the attitude here, how do you deal with the attitudes on the field?

You are welcome to post but no one is twisting your arm to do so. If you post, you open yourself to praise or ridicule. And when you show us that you can take it like a man, we will treat you as such. If you act like a spoiled child and whine, pi$$ and moan, you will be treated accordingly! It is taking you a long time to learn this, but I am confident that one day, you will understand. But for now, you will go back into the penalty box.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 08:39am
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Tim, your threat of putting me on an ignore list is particularly humorous. You will do no such thing. In the same way you open this thread, you will continue to read my posts. We all know how this works. In the real world, my friend, you cannot wave your arms and eject someone whenever they upset you.

I give you some credit for at least admitting that I know AS MUCH as you about the game, although I'm unsure how you can at least make that assumption without knowing who I am or what level I work at.

It is true that us coaches have agendas. These "agendas" go beyond winning a game, but include things like teaching, mentoring, organizing, and providing a memorable experience for players and families. Do you really think most of us get into this business (and, unlike you, we are not paid) for the pure joy of winning a few ballgames?

Looking at your attitude, please tell me how you would motivate someone new and young to get into coaching (which I would argue is THE most important role in baseball today) - if you have already pre-judged them as being a rat, liar, etc., and will continually walk onto a baseball field with this, frankly prejudiced, chip on your shoulder.

If you folks were in the majority then I would really fear for the game. I take solice in knowing that this is not the case and that your attempts to "belittle" us coaches is just a mob mentality coming from the type of person who is attracted to "Internet umpiring".

As to why coaches post and read this board, it is because it provides us with another medium to learn about the game - maybe if you folks did the same your experience on the field would be a lot more positive. We can learn a lot from each other if you just lost the attitude.

And again, I always teach my kids to respect umpires. Maybe you should give us the same courtesy.

See ya tomorrow!
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 09:23am
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My take on the whole debate: Coaches (all of them) and umpires (all of them) have different "goals" for the game (little "g" game -- not the big "G" Game of Baseball). That leads to the conflict. And, while not every coach acts like a "rat" during every game, (almost) all are capable of it and we've been hit over the head with a 2x4 often enought that when we see a coach approaching with one we don't ask "what are you going to build?"

And, while not every umpire acts like a redass every time, all that stick in the "profession" learn how to do it as a matter of survival, and you see it enough to think that we're "all" looking to get you.

Shrug.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 12, 2007, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck
Looking at your attitude, please tell me how you would motivate someone new and young to get into coaching (which I would argue is THE most important role in baseball today) - if you have already pre-judged them as being a rat, liar, etc., and will continually walk onto a baseball field with this, frankly prejudiced, chip on your shoulder.
I can't speak for Tim, but why should umpires as such be concerned with motivating people to go into coaching? As fans of the game in general, perhaps, but not as umpires.

As for prejudice: it serves the end of impartiality for umpires to be skeptical of (I do not say hostile toward) coaches, who often try to manipulate us. That is: our skeptical attitude makes us better umpires. Isn't that a good thing? To declare that this is "prejudice" is mere name-calling.

Typical rat mantra: "why can't we all get along (as long as I'm getting MY way)?"
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