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  #106 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2007, 03:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
My take on the whole debate: Coaches (all of them) and umpires (all of them) have different "goals" for the game (little "g" game -- not the big "G" Game of Baseball). That leads to the conflict. And, while not every coach acts like a "rat" during every game, (almost) all are capable of it and we've been hit over the head with a 2x4 often enought that when we see a coach approaching with one we don't ask "what are you going to build?"

And, while not every umpire acts like a redass every time, all that stick in the "profession" learn how to do it as a matter of survival, and you see it enough to think that we're "all" looking to get you.

Shrug.
The longer we do this, too, the easier it is to go from 1 to 10 on the red-*** meter. It *is* a matter of survival.

I've twice gone into dugouts in adult leagues (ejecting a random person and threatening to clear the dugout). I was perfectly in control of myself, although others may see it differently. I knew what I was doing at the time.

In games I've worked, I've heard coaches tell their teams that they "have to behave today cause these umpires aren't going to take any sh!t from anyone." That warms my heart, especially when it's a team known for bad behavior, ejections, and umpires scratching them from being assigned to their games home AND away.

But do I go out looking for it? Not often. I've only had one ejection this season, matter of fact -- a college head coach who argued a call all the way to right field and then (post-ejection) called me every name in the book and some I'd never heard up to that point.

In every 100-game season I work, I probably average 5 that include an ejection/incident of some kind. We ALL remember those more than the 95 games that go off like a walk in the park.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2007, 09:30am
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Good God at this thread.....


mutilated coaches lying everywhere (which aint all that bad)

and not much learned. (which is kinda bad)

Coaches, you gotta have your stuff together to swim here...thick skin helps, cause there aint no mercy!
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2007, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azbigdawg
thick skin helps, cause there aint no mercy!
I will admit that I don't have very thick skin. That is fine with me. If someone acts out of line and offends me, I eject them. The unfortunate thing for a lot of players and coaches on this site is that they cannot eject anyone. And anyone who cares about their role as coach, player or umpire will take offence to being trash-talked, and of course the problem cannot be solved when they cannot eject for it.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2007, 02:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
The unfortunate thing for a lot of players and coaches on this site is that they cannot eject anyone. And anyone who cares about their role as coach, player or umpire will take offence to being trash-talked, and of course the problem cannot be solved when they cannot eject for it.
Personally, I usually just go and kick my dog instead.
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2007, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
The unfortunate thing for a lot of players and coaches on this site is that they cannot eject anyone.
and HOW is that UNFORTUNETE? to me it is the NATURAL ORDER of things

Quote:
And anyone who cares about their role as coach, will take offence to being trash-talked, and of course the problem cannot be solved when they cannot eject for it.
well FORTUNETELY for YOUR tender feelings thats only ABOUT 0000.1% of ALL the RATS out there.

YOUR socalled PROBLEM ISNT one as far as I can see.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2007, 08:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I will admit that I don't have very thick skin. That is fine with me. If someone acts out of line and offends me, I eject them. SNIPPED
My God, if you are like this here, you must be in tears when the real BS starts on the field!

No one can offend me unless I allow them to - and I never give that pleasure to anyone but my wife!
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 11:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I will admit that I don't have very thick skin. That is fine with me. If someone acts out of line and offends me, I eject them.
Guess what. So do most of these so-called hardassed poster/umpires. At least you admit where they never will.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2007, 12:10am
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I think we all were 'thin skinned' when we first started out. I know I took everything that was said to me very personally and probably would describe that as being offended. As we gain experience, and confidence, then I would hope that the things said and done on the ball field would no longer be taken personally.

Most times the coaches and players aren't reacting to you personally, but as a figure of authority who is telling them what they can and can't do. I have found that there are adults who don't like being told what to do, they are leaders in their off the field lives, and are used to being 'in charge'. They push back and bristle when someone takes that power away from them.

A very good example of this is when I had to eject a coach who worked at the same company I did. He was a Sr. VP, had a reputation as a 'hard a*&' and ruled his roost. Well, the field is MY domain when I work a game. He didn't quite agree with that, and we still tease each other when we see each other at work.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2007, 12:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Personally, I usually just go and kick my dog instead.
Personally, I usually just go and kick Canadaump's dog instead!
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2007, 12:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitump56
Guess what. So do most of these so-called hardassed poster/umpires. At least you admit where they never will.

awwww

hands FIT a TISSUE
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2007, 12:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpLarryJohnson
awwww

hands FIT a TISSUE
Point made.

"Guess what. So do most of these so-called hardassed poster/umpires. At least you admit where they never will. "

Now, Dear UmpLJ, you have to figger out if you are part of the cure or part of ths disease.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2007, 01:27am
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Submitted for your approval

30 years of umpiring--true facts:


Coach (with mandatory play rules in effect) tells 3 worst players the wrong date for a key game.

Fastpitch (with ancient rule that F2 must wear catcher or first-baseman's mitt): Visitors' F2 gets injured; their sub is a lefty and starts catching with regular mitt . I (PU) don't worry about it; Home coach brings this up, and I must enforce it; Visitors cannot find proper LH mitt; Home team has one, but won't lend it; Visitors must use new F2 who has never caught before.

Coach in my home league is EJed by a newer ump for arguing a call at 1B. I did not work the game. Coach sees me the next week in local beverage establishment, and complains to me about "inconsistent" umpiring. He mentions play to me and how "his player [of course, it's his son] got robbed" and was clearly safe at 1B. I then inform coach that I happened to be walking my infant daughter in the stroller that night and was about 100 feet from the call. And far enough to see that his kid was out by a car-width.

League officials from Snotport distribute (before state tourney) photos that show a pitcher from Ratfield in the midst of an illegal pitching move (once again, fast-pitch) in a previous game. The Snotport officials try to give these to the umpires before the two teams play.

Before a tourney championship game, Weasels protest an that ineligible pitcher from the Ferrets won a recent game. League administrators uphold the protest, giving the Weasels the crown. The sachems asked the two teams to play anyway, and both agreed. Weasels beat the Ferrets on the field (who used the "evil" pitcher). Under the direction of coaches, Ferrets players take their second-place trophies and stick them upside down into turf, and bolt the awards ceremony.

After a similar awards ceremony (with no protests), runners-up take their trophies to parking lot and destroy them with bats, balls, etc. The coaches take photos of this and proudly display same to anyone who wants to see. One coach told me that these acts proved that "second place isn't good enough" and "to get the returning kids primed for next year."

Yes, these are in youth leagues. And some here wonder why we view coaches with such rancor.

Ace Holleran
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 18, 2007, 12:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceholleran
30 years of umpiring--true facts:
Facts by definition are.

Quote:

Coach (with mandatory play rules in effect) tells 3 worst players the wrong date for a key game.

Yes, these are in youth leagues. And some here wonder why we view coaches with such rancor.

Ace Holleran
40 years of umpiring + funny how that works, Ace, isn't it?
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 18, 2007, 05:23am
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Wow, what a thread

Coaches,

You need to understand something, and I am not sure you do yet.

Many of us work higher levels of baseball, or have at one time or another. The higher you go in the sport, the more importance there is placed on winning. And there all of us have seen managers who will throw their own mother under the bus to win a game. That includes trying to throw umpires under the bus, who are by definition the only objective people on the field.

When you umpire high levels of baseball, there is a level of callousness that you have to develop, because there will be times where hundreds or thousands of fans will make comments about your heritage, or say you are a %$*%^#)(_^_&*% because you made a call in a game they didn't like. It's not a whole lot different than what managers go through, their jobs rely on winning, and losing not only cost them their jobs, it kills them inside to lose.

Not only that, all of us at some time or another have seen managers do awful things to players, and umpires in a game. Geez, think about how many kids you know who were great players in your area, they go to college, and they are shunted off the team, or sit the bench for 4 years, or don't have a scholarship renewed when they get hurt or don't perform. Coaches on upper levels are paid to win first, and if they need to find player y who is better than player x, then when they find y, x is out the door and down the street. That is why HS sports are so great, it's your kids, in your town or area, warts and all. In college, it's who gets the most wins. You don't think such an attitude coaches have doesn't affect their relationships with umpires?

A lot of coaches and managers treat umpires with respect, even when umpires miss a call. But after so many times of being attacked for the right call, and so many cheap underhanded things like bad evaluations, saying nasty things in the press about us, etc. umpires get defensive. Most of us here are veteran umpires, we didn't quit when some guy tried to rip us open like an axe murderer for a call they didn't like. Unless you have been hung out to dry by some twerp of a manager in front of hundreds or thousands of people you have no idea how it feels. Just look at guys in MLB, they make hundreds of calls a game, and even when they are right, they catch flack in newspapers, radio and TV, and the internet. When a manager or player screws up, their fans are on some level forgiving. But let an umpire mess up, and he is ripped like a used sheet of paper.

So often a loss is not the players' fault, or the manager's fault, or even the other teams good play. People need to protect their ego by blaming someone, and guess who that is, the guy who calls the game fairly.

And you ask umpires not to have thick skin and a hard-nosed attitude?

You coches also have to understand that just like you guys will sit around in places and compare notes and complain about how good or bad a team, player, or umpire is, we sometimes do to. And since we can't sit down at a meeting with guys 3000 mileds away, we do it here. We don't rip you for your comments about us in private, don't rip us for what we say here.

And to the argument over who the customer is: The customer is the conference or authority who assigns us to the game. The lack of economic understanding was clear. The umpires are impartial, because they are hired and controlled by a conference or other organization, meant to be impartial. That's why X number of teams band together to have a conference, to set up fair competition between schools who want to win. Teams do not pay umpires in college BB, even though they cut checks. The conference, who selects the umpires to make sure there is no bias for one school or another, sets the rates, and sets the rules. IN HS baseball and other places, schools contract for game umpires, but they don't control the umpires, the rules used, or the judgements they make. They can decide to not hire a person again, but if they started only using guys who they like, they will get in trouble with the other group involved in the game, the other teamd who feels like they are cheated. So, Bob is right, the schools don't control umpires, conferences and sanctioning organizations do.

I'll shut up in a minute, but one or two more points: I am a member of the clergy, as some people on this board know. I do take my faith seriously, so I make it a point to "love my neighbor as myself", as most Christians do, because I know I am on display for more reasons than just my strike zone on a baseball field. That means I will put up with more stuff than many other people, even on a baseball field. And I have some great friends who are coaches, and players. I have gotten to know a lot of good people through umpiring, including coaches. But I have been burned by coaches and players who take advantage of my philosophy, and I get really irritated at them. And while I may not use the term "rats" for most coaches, I can still get pretty mad at them.

Also, you will notice that we are hard on each other as well. Look at the "smitty" thread on this site. That thread is up there because all of us as umpires have seen people who make all of us look bad. They are umpires, they dress somewhat like umpires, but their praxsis is not very good as an umpire. And these guys have made us look bad at one time or another. Most of us who are umpires here have a desire to be great umpires, because we care about the game, we care about kids/players, and we want to have a good reputation (and be paid well) as an umpire. Some object because we are harsh, others write this because maybe one day some "smitty" will read about how he is wrong in what he does, and will then get better as an umpire.

I have much more to say, but I'll let others talk ...

Last edited by jkumpire; Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 05:33am.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 18, 2007, 09:52am
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thanks John

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire
Coaches,

I'll shut up in a minute, but one or two more points: I am a member of the clergy, as some people on this board know. I do take my faith seriously, so I make it a point to "love my neighbor as myself", as most Christians do, because I know I am on display for more reasons than just my strike zone on a baseball field. That means I will put up with more stuff than many other people, even on a baseball field. And I have some great friends who are coaches, and players. I have gotten to know a lot of good people through umpiring, including coaches. But I have been burned by coaches and players who take advantage of my philosophy, and I get really irritated at them. And while I may not use the term "rats" for most coaches, I can still get pretty mad at them.

Also, you will notice that we are hard on each other as well. Look at the "smitty" thread on this site. That thread is up there because all of us as umpires have seen people who make all of us look bad. They are umpires, they dress somewhat like umpires, but their praxsis is not very good as an umpire. And these guys have made us look bad at one time or another. Most of us who are umpires here have a desire to be great umpires, because we care about the game, we care about kids/players, and we want to have a good reputation (and be paid well) as an umpire. Some object because we are harsh, others write this because maybe one day some "smitty" will read about how he is wrong in what he does, and will then get better as an umpire.

I have much more to say, but I'll let others talk ...
and that's the gospel "sorry couldn't resist!

I echo John's comments. Don't know how many times I've had coaches try and take advantage because they know who I am and what I do as a minister.

Thansk
David
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