Unusual occurence in April 28th Baltimore-Cleveland game

[David B]

Originally Posted by kylejt

It's not about what the call should have been, but rather how it got there. Was proper procedure followed? No way. This is a process failure, and the protest is all about the process.

Umpire mistakes are part of the very fabric of the game. Sometimes we goof, boys. And when we do, the managers have certain responsibilities. And when they fail it's TFB for everyone.

MLB is going to sugar coat this, I have no doubt. The "get the call right" brush will sweep it all under the rug. But the implications, just like the reversed foul call last year, will build up until the robots from Spacely Sprockets are calling the games. I just hope +POS won't be the official supplier for spare parts.

Well I've looked in all of my books and can't seem to find a proper process for this play.

So there must be some information that I'm not aware of - if you could please let me know where to look or what the process is, that would be helpful.

Maybe its just the baseketball ref in me whereas you can always go back and fix the score until the game is over as long as you have evidence etc., It was the third out of the inning anyway so it didn't affect the outcome of the inning or the game for that matter.

Not that I'd ever have this play happen, but just in case ,

Thanks
David

[PeteBooth]

This play was handled very well and the crew is to be comended for not caring what it looked like or what they looked like, but putting their personal interests aside and getting the freaking call right.

We all have our opinions but IMO, this play was not handled very well at all especially when you have 4 very well trained umpires at the highest level. As I said in my first post, if this were an amateur game, this crew would be getting "killed" by everyone.

You can't protest a judgement call and it was Ed's judgement to have the run awarded. It doesn't matter when, when he did it was still the right call.

IMO, the timing does matter.

Let me use an extreme example to get my point across.

In NFL football, pass interference is a judgement call and it is a spot foul. let's say we had a controversial play in the end zone a blatant Pass interference which was not called. The offense proceeds to run 2 more plays and then punts the ball. All of a sudden the officials huddle and now want to 'go back" and enforce the pass interference call.

One might say wait a minute Pete you are comparing apples / oranges. IMO I am not. In baseball a run is a HUGE factor in the game. IMO, you cannot go back and Retroactively put runs on the Board. The game is dictated by how many runs one is leading by. It effects the pitching match-ups etc.

The O's had plenty of time to question the play or appeal it. They didn't so IMO, you cannot go back and put runs on the Board.

My opinion doesn't count so we will have to wait and see what major league baseball does. Whatever the decision, it's my gut money will come into it, meaning if the protest is upheld, do the people who attended that game have free seats to see the game picked up from the protest or will they have 2 admissions sort of a day / night type double dip.

If the protest is NOT upheld then IMO the floodgates could be open.

IMO, this theory about getting the call right is overhyped becasue the fact is We will not get every call right. Timing is a factor that's why the rule-makers put "time limits" if you will into the appeal rules. We live in an imperfect world.

Bottom Line IMO, a Very Poor job by this umpiring crew.

Pete Booth

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by David B

Well I've looked in all of my books and can't seem to find a proper process for this play.

So there must be some information that I'm not aware of - if you could please let me know where to look or what the process is, that would be helpful.

Maybe its just the baseketball ref in me whereas you can always go back and fix the score until the game is over as long as you have evidence etc., It was the third out of the inning anyway so it didn't affect the outcome of the inning or the game for that matter.

Not that I'd ever have this play happen, but just in case ,

Thanks
David

I don't think that there is any specific thing for this play, but baseball has a pretty consistent timeframe for dealing with things: next pitch or all infielders leave the infield. I think the umpires have to get it right in that time frame or live with it. Here a mistake was made but it just wasn't corrected soon enough.

[mcrowder]

I think it's a no-brainer that this protest should be upheld. The offense, at the time of the RULES misinterpretation, did not protest the incorrect ruling. 1 pitch later, it's too late. 3 innings later? Ridiculous. Since the offended team had no recourse 3 innings later, why should the umpires? They don't. Adding the run that late is not in accordance with the rules, and THIS was correctly protested.

The real question ... will MLB have the cojones to uphold the protest and replay the game from that point? I bet they don't, and I bet their excuse is that 1 run was not the difference in the game ... a contention I disagree with 100%.

[UMP25]

Don't be surprised if this protest is denied for a couple reasons, one of which is that the ultimate ruling, which was correct, had "no substantial impact upon the outcome of the game."

[lawump]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Don't be surprised if this protest is denied for a couple reasons, one of which is that the ultimate ruling, which was correct, had "no substantial impact upon the outcome of the game."

Agreed. This protest is going to be denied for one reason and one reason only: Take away the run and Baltimore still wins 6-4. If the final score was 7-6, then maybe they'd uphold the protest (or maybe not). If the final score was 7-6 they would likely be forced to address the merits of Cleveland's protest...but with a 3-run difference, there is no need...they will quickly deny it and move on.

I know some will argue: "we'll that's not right because the impact of adding that run in the 6th could have affected how Cleveland played the rest of the game," or something like that. Unfortunately, MLB execs don't have PhD's...so this won't fly. The execs only care about the hard facts, baby. Take away the run and it doesn't matter.

IMO, this protest will be denied solely on the grounds stated by UMP25: The run doesn't matter one way or the other.

[Durham]

I am just saying that while you are correct, for an appeal to be made by a team the rules dictate that it must be done before the next pitch and/or before the players leave the field and what not. However, this wasn't an appeal play. This was the umpires working to get it right. And I can't find a section in the book that states they have a time limit to do that. The teams yes, the umpires no. You said it Pete, we do live in an imperferct world, and while the timing was imperfect, the call was correct. And Mc, you want to talk about cojones, man, would any of us have the cojones to do what Ed and the boys did? It truly will be interesting to see what MLB says.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Durham

I am just saying that while you are correct, for an appeal to be made by a team the rules dictate that it must be done before the next pitch and/or before the players leave the field and what not. However, this wasn't an appeal play. This was the umpires working to get it right. And I can't find a section in the book that states they have a time limit to do that. The teams yes, the umpires no. You said it Pete, we do live in an imperferct world, and while the timing was imperfect, the call was correct. And Mc, you want to talk about cojones, man, would any of us have the cojones to do what Ed and the boys did? It truly will be interesting to see what MLB says.

No, I would never have the cojones (nor the audacity) to reverse a call made 3 innings ago, whether I was right or wrong in retrospect. Not because I have a lack of such anatomy ... but because it is the wrong thing to do. Just as the opposing team has until the next pitch to reverse a mistaken rules interpretation, the same limit should be applied to us.

[greymule]

I remember an example (from the J/R? from a rules quiz?) very similar to this case but not identical in process.

In the play, in the third inning, the run scores from 3B before the third out is registered on appeal of a runner who left 1B too soon on a caught fly ball. (Same as in the Cleveland-Baltimore game). But in this play, the umpires don't make a call either way on the run, and the game proceeds as if the run did not score. The rest goes something like this: the game goes to extra innings, and the team that got the "break" on the run eventually wins. After the game, the umpires realize that the third-inning run should have counted. Supposedly, the run is then counted and the outcome of the game is reversed.

From reading the newspaper yesterday, I got the impression that the umpire initially claimed that the out at 1B had occurred before the runner from 3B crossed the plate. I was umpiring down in Delaware/Maryland yesterday, and the fans were talking about the play. Everyone seemed to be saying that over the next couple of innings, somebody must have showed the umps a replay showing that the run had scored, but since they're not supposed to rely on replays, they looked for excuse to reverse themselves. It's inconceivable to me that four MLB umpires could blow that call on a rule misinterpretation.

[johnnyg08]

I agree, there has to be more to it than what the news is describing...how can four of the best blow it that bad...I just don't get it...

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I agree, there has to be more to it than what the news is describing...how can four of the best blow it that bad...I just don't get it...

Only one guy blew it. I'm guessing the other three didn't notice.

Anyone notice who had the "catch" on that rotation?

[johnnyg08]

Palermo will tell you that all of the umpires had their eyes on the ball at some point...so I'm sure at some point, they all saw the catch...the time play...I agree with you that's ultimately that is PU's resp...but you win as a crew and you lose as a crew...

[jxt127]

Originally Posted by greymule

I remember an example (from the J/R? from a rules quiz?) very similar to this case but not identical in process.

I've read this too I think it was in J/R.

[canadaump6]

This is a very bizarre occurance. Ed Montegue, an MLB umpire, does not know the time play. Why an umpire at that level would not know such an elementary rule is beyond me.

There is a second rule that Ed Montegue is unaware of. You cannot change a judgement call after another pitch is made. To wait more than 2 innings to change a call is unacceptable.

I know I shouldn't be dissing a fellow official, but this is just not acceptable.

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

If the aforementioned happened in the LLWS or some other youth event, most would say "well you get what you paid for" or "that's why they call them LL umpires" or something along those lines.

Sorry to quote you as I don't normally like to do that, but the umpires got off extremely easy on this one. There should have been a whole gang of managers ready to tear their heads off.