Unusual occurence in April 28th Baltimore-Cleveland game

[Toadman15241]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

In my opinion, it is plate umpire Marvin Hudson's bad all the way. He waved off the run that clearly scored before the 3rd out was made on appeal. He clearly was operating under the common but oh-so-wrong misunderstanding that doubling off a runner who leaves early on a fly is a force out.

I think Montague et. al. were kind of thrown under the bus by Hudson's ignorance, and didn't realize what had happened until it was too late, but then guilt gnawed on them for 3 innings until Montague made the executive decision to correct the error.

I think the protest should be upheld. The rules afforded the offense ample opportunity to appeal for a correct decision, and they did not. Montague's heart may have been in the right place, vis-a-vis the currently popular "get it right" mantra, but his 3-inning late mea culpa is without precedent and without support in the rules or published interpretations.

I agree that the protest needs to be upheld. The offense DID appeal the situation immediately after the play occurred, and all 4 umps got together and they ALL didn't know the rule. All 4 deserve to be thrown under the bus. The offense (Baltimore) should have protested the game right there. They did not and that is there fault. You can't go change this after the next pitch, much less 3 innings later. This crew should be given a week off to re-read the rule book.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

In all fairness to the rest of the MLB crews out there that I have observed, I regularly see the PU signal "Time Play" when the situation comes up. I have never heard of any crews getting this basic concept wrong (until now.)

I don't always tap my wrist with one out. Two outs, and runners in scoring position I will, but rarely on one out.

[SAump]

Where in the rulebook does it state that an umpire can wipe off an earned run by mistake?

The defense saw the umpires were still wondering about the play in question too. Both sides put in their arguments and the umpires corrected the mistake, albeit 3 innings too late. I believe there is a precedent to changing the official score to reflect player statitistics such as RBI awards. The defense should have been well aware of the mistake the umpires had made. I guess instant replay was shown and everyone knew the umpires had made a mistake. The right thing to do would be to withdraw the protest, if possible, or throw it out, if not.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by SAump

Where in the rulebook does it state that an umpire can wipe off an earned run by mistake?

Everyone is overthinking this. It's a judgment call, on a timing play. No one, NO ONE called it a misapplication of the rules after it happened. No run scores on this folks, as called by the umpire at the plate. If anyone had a problem with it they a had lot of time before the next pitch happened. Hey, maybe the PU didn't see the batter hit the plate in time. It really doesn't matter though. He made a very distinct wave off, just listen to the announcer. No question what he was calling. If the O's didn't like it, they should have spoken up at the time.

Too late now, or three innings later, IMO.

[Toadman15241]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Everyone is overthinking this. It's a judgment call, on a timing play. No one, NO ONE called it a misapplication of the rules after it happened.

Too late now, or three innings later, IMO.

I disagree. There is NO way that this is a judgment call. Everyone in the park knew that the runner touched home before the appeal at 1st. If it was pure judgment, the O's bench coach would not have come out to argue, and they wouldn't have sent someone to check the rule book. This crew managed to screw up two basic rules in one game. Sad.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by Toadman15241

Everyone in the park knew that the runner touched home before the appeal at 1st.

Everyone......except for one. Unfortunately, he's the only guy in the park that counts. He waved it off. Now the question is, why did he wave it off? Either he didn't know a very fundamental baseball rule, OR he thought the appeal came before the runner hit the plate. Both equally stupid. But who's to say that the PU just didn't think about the touch of the plate, saw R1 returning, and assumed R3 brainlocked as well. What I'm saying is that the PU didn't see R3 score, and he just waved off. A JUDGMENT CALL. A very poor judgment call, but that's all it is.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Everyone......except for one. Unfortunately, he's the only guy in the park that counts. He waved it off. Now the question is, why did he wave it off? Either he didn't know a very fundamental baseball rule, OR he thought the appeal came before the runner hit the plate. Both equally stupid. But who's to say that the PU just didn't think about the touch of the plate, saw R1 returning, and assumed R3 brainlocked as well. What I'm saying is that the PU didn't see R3 score, and he just waved off. A JUDGMENT CALL. A very poor judgment call, but that's all it is.

I don't know why you are tyring to hang your hat on a judgment call. Even the umpires involved said they were checking a RULE.

"We kicked it around and now I'm having a brain cramp on it," Montague said. "So I sent Bill (umpire Bill Miller) in, I said 'You know what, cause we're debating, you go in. Lets make it 100 percent sure."'

Miller checked the rule and said the run should have counted. Montague was vague about why it took until the sixth to make the change, saying "it kind of went on" with the umpires conferring with the managers.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I don't know why you are tyring to hang your hat on a judgment call. Even the umpires involved said they were checking a RULE.

[/I]

Oh, I agree. They were looking for some sort of rule to overturn, negate or bypass a blown judgment call. They just couldn't find one, I guess.

[kylejt]

I'm open to a logical explanation on why the PU waved off the run.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right. It's just what I would argue on this protest. I've got my lawyer hat on, instead of my six stitch combo. Bring it counselor!

Has Marv spoken about this incident yet? Have any of you groupies talked to him?

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

In my opinion, it is plate umpire Marvin Hudson's bad all the way. He waved off the run that clearly scored before the 3rd out was made on appeal. He clearly was operating under the common but oh-so-wrong misunderstanding that doubling off a runner who leaves early on a fly is a force out.

I think Montague et. al. were kind of thrown under the bus by Hudson's ignorance, and didn't realize what had happened until it was too late, but then guilt gnawed on them for 3 innings until Montague made the executive decision to correct the error.

I think the protest should be upheld. The rules afforded the offense ample opportunity to appeal for a correct decision, and they did not. Montague's heart may have been in the right place, vis-a-vis the currently popular "get it right" mantra, but his 3-inning late mea culpa is without precedent and without support in the rules or published interpretations.

I was having dinner with 7 NCAA umpires when this umpires when this play happened and they were working two man during the game. 5 of the 8 of us had por experience and 2 of the 5 had MLB fill-in time, one guy with over 900 games. We were talking before they added the run in the 6th and When I suggested that they might in the 5th and it happened in the 6th we all got an ohhh my god look in our faces, but then we talked about why they did it. They did it because their ultimate goal is to get it right.

Guys are always *****ing about a guy kicking a call or a crew making a mistake. THIS IS WHEN THE BEST UMPIRING IS DONE AND THE REAL CREAM RISES TO THE TOP. Yes, they should have never missed the call, but they did and then they got it right. The idea as it was explained to me when I was in pro ball and being evaluated was not to be perfect, but get in a **** house and come out on the other side clean. You never wanted to have a nothing game when you were being looked at. This play was handled very well and the crew is to be comended for not caring what it looked like or what they looked like, but putting their personal interests aside and getting the freaking call right.

As for the protest, I honestly think that it will not be allowed. The protest was made by Cleveland when they added the run, but they umpires simply did they right thing once they realized what that was. So the timing of the protest by Cleveland was correct, but in the "judgement" of the umpires, they did what they felt was correct. You can't protest a judgement call and it was Ed's judgement to have the run awarded. It doesn't matter when, when he did it was still the right call.

To answer the lack of support in the rules, their is no support either way, so as per 9.01c they had the right to do what they did.

Fell free to tell me that I am wrong, because all 7 of my friends did.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I'm open to a logical explanation on why the PU waved off the run.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right. It's just what I would argue on this protest. I've got my lawyer hat on, instead of my six stitch combo. Bring it counselor!

Has Marv spoken about this incident yet? Have any of you groupies talked to him?

I don't know him, but I think he might have thought for a sec, brain cramp, that it was a force play at 1st base. I think if it happens at 2nd and not 1st he is ok. Sometimes guys get screwed up with time plays at 1st.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Durham

I was having dinner with 7 NCAA umpires when this umpires when this play happened and they were working two man during the game. 5 of the 8 of us had por experience and 2 of the 5 had MLB fill-in time, one guy with over 900 games. We were talking before they added the run in the 6th and When I suggested that they might in the 5th and it happened in the 6th we all got an ohhh my god look in our faces, but then we talked about why they did it. They did it because their ultimate goal is to get it right.

Guys are always *****ing about a guy kicking a call or a crew making a mistake. THIS IS WHEN THE BEST UMPIRING IS DONE AND THE REAL CREAM RISES TO THE TOP. Yes, they should have never missed the call, but they did and then they got it right. The idea as it was explained to me when I was in pro ball and being evaluated was not to be perfect, but get in a **** house and come out on the other side clean. You never wanted to have a nothing game when you were being looked at. This play was handled very well and the crew is to be comended for not caring what it looked like or what they looked like, but putting their personal interests aside and getting the freaking call right.

As for the protest, I honestly think that it will not be allowed. The protest was made by Cleveland when they added the run, but they umpires simply did they right thing once they realized what that was. So the timing of the protest by Cleveland was correct, but in the "judgement" of the umpires, they did what they felt was correct. You can't protest a judgement call and it was Ed's judgement to have the run awarded. It doesn't matter when, when he did it was still the right call.

To answer the lack of support in the rules, their is no support either way, so as per 9.01c they had the right to do what they did.

Fell free to tell me that I am wrong, because all 7 of my friends did.

Might be without precedent, but as you stated it sounds like they did a "right" thing.

I think they will disallow the protest also because the rules are not very clear either way.

As we know in baseball, there is a first time for everything.

Thanks
DAvid

[jimpiano]

The protest will be disallowed since the umpires got it right.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The protest will be disallowed since the umpires got it right.

It's not about what the call should have been, but rather how it got there. Was proper procedure followed? No way. This is a process failure, and the protest is all about the process.

Umpire mistakes are part of the very fabric of the game. Sometimes we goof, boys. And when we do, the managers have certain responsibilities. And when they fail it's TFB for everyone.

MLB is going to sugar coat this, I have no doubt. The "get the call right" brush will sweep it all under the rug. But the implications, just like the reversed foul call last year, will build up until the robots from Spacely Sprockets are calling the games. I just hope +POS won't be the official supplier for spare parts.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by kylejt

It's not about what the call should have been, but rather how it got there. Was proper procedure followed? No way. This is a process failure, and the protest is all about the process.

Umpire mistakes are part of the very fabric of the game. Sometimes we goof, boys. And when we do, the managers have certain responsibilities. And when they fail it's TFB for everyone.

MLB is going to sugar coat this, I have no doubt. The "get the call right" brush will sweep it all under the rug. But the implications, just like the reversed foul call last year, will build up until the robots from Spacely Sprockets are calling the games. I just hope +POS won't be the official supplier for spare parts.

Since you seem to be abreast of the proper procedure for this type of situation, can you tell me where I can find it so I can read it for myself?

I thought the process and objective of an umpires job was to ultimately get the call right?

The process use to allow for swearing on the field, chewing tobacco on the field, living and dieing with a call. The process has changed and the guys followed it.