Unusual occurence in April 28th Baltimore-Cleveland game

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Two mistakes doesn't make one right call. Yes, they kicked when the run was waived off. They had until the next pitch to correct it and they didn't, neither did Baltimore challenge the incorrect application of the rules. Three innings later, the umpires decided to take it upon themselves to protest their mistake and correct it. This is an error because the time for correcting the error had passed. This is, quite literally, a make-up call.

Screwing up once does not give you license to intentionally screw up again because you think the second one makes up for the first.

1) MLB ruled they were right. Again, we are umpires, we enforce not interpret. There is nothing that prohibits them from doing what they did. Some tradition, maybe, but rule no. MLB Interpreted that the umpires were correct in their actions. That is good enough for me.

2) This was not an appeal or protest, before they added the run, so nothing says the have 1 pitch/play to fix it.

3) Like I said earlier, these guys aren't MLB umpires because they never make mistakes, they are MLB umpires because they can handle their ****. Great umpires are definded by being able to get out of hairy situations, and have the call be right, no ejections if possible, no protests if possible, and winning one if you have it. EVERYONE MAKES MISTAKES ON THE FIELD, not everyone has the knowledge and/or skill set to fix em in a ****house.

I could be wrong, and we don't have to agree, but the men that get paid to make the decisions publically said the umpires did the right thing.

"Mindful of their obligation that 'the first requisite is to get decisions correctly,' as the Rules instruct them, this umpire crew was within the authority that Rule 9.01(c) gave them to correct the game score when they did."

[JJ]

This umping stuff just gets funner and funner all the time. I'd love to see the NCAA and FED address this one. I think most of us are in agreement that if Pandora's Box hasn't been opened completely, at least the lid has been cracked a little. Summer ball is going to be a lot of fun this year...and what's that I hear in the distance (and getting closer)? "Replay!" "Replay!" "Replay!"

JJ

PS Yes, I know "funner" isn't a dictionary word...

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Durham

1) MLB ruled they were right. Again, we are umpires, we enforce not interpret. There is nothing that prohibits them from doing what they did. Some tradition, maybe, but rule no. MLB Interpreted that the umpires were correct in their actions. That is good enough for me.

Anytime that you have to invoke 9.01(c) "The umpire is always right." to show that the umpire was right, the umpire was wrong. MLB ruled that they were going to engage in CYA. What other things do the rules not prohibit that we are going to tolerate the umpires doing? If an umpire realizes three innings later that he declared a batter out on two strikes, are we going to allow the batter to start the new inning with the old count to correct the mistake? Mistakes in the application need to be corrected when the occur or not at all.

2) This was not an appeal or protest, before they added the run, so nothing says the have 1 pitch/play to fix it.

Yes, it does. Baltimore had 1 pitch/play to appeal or protest the run not being added. When they did not, it (should have) closed the door on correcting the error.

3) Like I said earlier, these guys aren't MLB umpires because they never make mistakes, they are MLB umpires because they can handle their ****. Great umpires are definded by being able to get out of hairy situations, and have the call be right, no ejections if possible, no protests if possible, and winning one if you have it. EVERYONE MAKES MISTAKES ON THE FIELD, not everyone has the knowledge and/or skill set to fix em in a ****house.

If this was them handling something, I would hate to see them lose control!

I could be wrong, and we don't have to agree, but the men that get paid to make the decisions publically said the umpires did the right thing.

"Mindful of their obligation that 'the first requisite is to get decisions correctly,' as the Rules instruct them, this umpire crew was within the authority that Rule 9.01(c) gave them to correct the game score when they did."

I'll repeat: if you have to use 9.01(c) to justify your actions, you are wrong.

[David B]

Originally Posted by JJ

This umping stuff just gets funner and funner all the time. I'd love to see the NCAA and FED address this one. I think most of us are in agreement that if Pandora's Box hasn't been opened completely, at least the lid has been cracked a little. Summer ball is going to be a lot of fun this year...and what's that I hear in the distance (and getting closer)? "Replay!" "Replay!" "Replay!"

JJ

PS Yes, I know "funner" isn't a dictionary word...

Agreed, the "get it right police" have emerged and ain't going away soon.

Especially in summer leagues where the parents run the programs etc.,

Thansk
David

[PeteBooth]

What happened has nothing to do whether they got it right or not.

It has to do with TIMING. There was a rule misapplication as evidenced by the crew chief instructing one of his umpires to check the rule book and according to the rules as written there is a certain amount of time that the injured party has to appeal the decision and it is not some 3 innings later.

Botton Line IMO this was a CYA in the first degree. As mentioned it would be very interesting to see what would have happen in a World Series game.

Pete Booth

[bossman72]

FWIW, if you go to www.rulesofbaseball.com and take their online quiz, this exact situation (changing the score later) comes up:


R1, R3, one out, home team at bat, fifth inning. Squeeze play; runners stealing on the pitch. The batter attempts to bunt over the head of the charging first baseman. He pops the ball over the first baseman's head, but the pitcher makes a spectacular diving catch (taking attention away from R3). R3 touches home as the catch is made. He sees that R1 will be out easily, and he proceeds quietly to his dugout. The pitcher tosses the ball to first base for an easy retouch appeal, and R1 is the third out. The pitcher's trainer and manager sprint onto the field to check their pitcher for injury. A normal change of half-innings ensues; no one, including the plate umpire, deals with R3's failure to retouch or his run (which obviously scored before the third out-a time play). After nine innings, the scoreboard says the score is 2-2, and the visiting team eventually wins by an apparent score of 4-2 after 12 innings. In their locker room after the game, the umpires discuss the fifth inning double play, and realize that the run scored for the home team. What should they do?


Answer:



In professional rules, the 'correct' answer is 'b', the umpires must inform the official scorer and the two managers that the home team won the game in eight-and-a-half innings by a score of 3-2.

Don't feel bad if you got this one wrong. There is nothing written to cover this situation in the Official Rules. You will find other, similar game-ending situations in The Rules of Professional Baseball that are not treated, or inadequately treated in the Official Rules.

NFHS (high school) rules directly treat the situation in which there is an error in the score. In the quiz question, letter 'd' would be the correct answer for a high school game. The scoring error must be found before the umpires leave the field, or the final score stands. You will find these vital rule differences in Jaksa and Roder's Rule Differences Edition, which includes NCAA, NAIA, and NFHS rule differences.




So apparently according to the J/R, the umpires on the field got it right

[SAump]

Which rule is more important: a) make no appeal or protest after the next pitch or b) the other rules in the book? Let me answer that.

Umpire waves a run off the board. The network cuts to commericals. The manager makes a last second appeal to check out the facts and restore the run. His team is sitting in disbelief of the events that had transpired.

By the end of the next half-inning, the entire viewing audience knows about the mistake(s). All agree that it wasn't the RIGHT call and it wasn't the RIGHT explanation. The Cleveland fans are delighted with the outcome. The umpires erred twice in their favor.

The crew chief is standing there amazed and confused. It was their OBLIGATION to make the RIGHT call before and after the appeal. The phone lines are busy, the bosses are notified of the situation, and someone is sent to turn the pages of a rulebook. The baseball world is abuzz in speculative chatter.

The decision is made to ADD the run back onto the scorebook. The umpires, knowingly, have contradicted another rule in the book. Manager Y feels his copy of the code has been incorrectly modified. He could give a rats *** between previous rights or wrongs. This is NOT the PROCESS he states as he now lodges a formal protest. His opponents right to due process expired three innings ago.

The protest is filed with and later denied by the very folks who COUNT most, the league office that determines which rule violation is more egregious. It is apparant that rules of the game prohibit umpires from incorrectly applying the rules of the game for which they are directly responsible. Whether it is before the next pitch or after, the league office directs UMPIRES not to do that.

[kylejt]

Here's the question that's been nagging me since day one:

Where is the professional scorekeeper in all of this? Surely they knew it was a timing play. And they must have known the run scored. Everyone would have been served if they sent word to the field about Fido being violated, and no one would have been the wiser. You've got a lot of time between innings in a MLB game.

Look, Marv had a senior moment, and the other three probably didn't see it. The fifth wheel starts hearing about it in the dugout, yanks a field guy to thumb through the book for some rule, other than 9.01(c), to stave off the ugly protest. Failing that, they "get the call right", and back over the PU. I guess they thought that the protest coming from this direction would be easier to deflect.

Again, the only folks who've thought any more than thirty seconds about this are us umpire geeks.

[GarthB]

Well at least we don't have to argue judgment vs. rule application anymore. The MLB has stated it was not a judgment issue.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Everyone would have been served if they sent word to the field about Fido being violated, and no one would have been the wiser

It took me two times reading this before I got it. LMAO and ROTF.

[greymule]

I still think the call of waving off the run was erroneous judgment (mainly from failure to pay attention), not misapplication of a rule. There's no way that 4 MLB umps didn't know the rule. And even if they didn't, plenty of people there would have known it, and Baltimore would have lodged a protest then and there.

But they instead (preposterously) claimed the run didn't make it across the plate in time. So it's a judgment call that can't be protested.

Later, whether by a surreptitious look at a replay or simply thinking about the obvious timing of the play, the umps realized they had robbed Baltimore of a run. So how do you "make things right"? You make up an excuse that you had misinterpreted a rule.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by greymule

I still think the call of waving off the run was erroneous judgment (mainly from failure to pay attention), not misapplication of a rule. There's no way that 4 MLB umps didn't know the rule. And even if they didn't, plenty of people there would have known it, and Baltimore would have lodged a protest then and there.

But they instead (preposterously) claimed the run didn't make it across the plate in time. So it's a judgment call that can't be protested.

Later, whether by a surreptitious look at a replay or simply thinking about the obvious timing of the play, the umps realized they had robbed Baltimore of a run. So how do you "make things right"? You make up an excuse that you had misinterpreted a rule.

You really think that four MLB umpires decided to pretend they didn't know a rule?

I get it. Then for this ruse to stand, they send Miller to "look at the rule book". Instead, he studies replays and then comes back and reports to Ed.

Then they get MLB to lie when they said "This was not a judgment issue" when in reality, it would have been easier for MLB if it WAS a judgment issue.

What are your thoughts on Katrina being a conspiracy by a collection of left wing politicians and a publising company to help the sales of Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth"?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by GarthB

What are your thoughts on Katrina being a conspiracy by a collection of left wing politicians and a publising company to help the sales of Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth"?

Everyone knows that was GWB's Weather Machine(tm) in the basement of the White House.

It's true, I read it on the Internet

[greymule]

You really think that four MLB umpires decided to pretend they didn't know a rule?

Or clumsily tried to finesse their way out of a judgment call and into a rules interpretation. You really think they didn't know the rule?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by greymule

You really think that four MLB umpires decided to pretend they didn't know a rule?

Or clumsily tried to finesse their way out of a judgment call and into a rules interpretation. You really think they didn't know the rule?

I think it is far more likely that the PU brainfarted than four MLB umpires and the ML office decided to lie.