Mechanics And Positioning

[RoyGardner]

A question on mechanics to our brother baseball officials. As a football official we're always stressing the need to "keep the play in front of you" and to pay close attention to the various angles in your positioning to avoid angles where you're "blocked out" of a play.

I saw for the 2nd time in 2 days during a MLB game (Phillies @ Red Sox) where the 2nd base umpire who was positioned in the infield got straightlined on a steal play at 2nd and missed an out call. What is the rationale for positioning the umpire inside (vs on the outfield side)? It would seem that the chances of being screened out of a call and/or having trouble picking up the ball as it comes from behind you (via catcher's throw) would be significantly less if the 2nd base umpire was located in a position to see runner, fielder and ball all coming to the base at the same time. When the replay was shown (closeup) runner was clearly out, but on 2nd replay from a home plate area camera, player applying tag was directly between the U and the runner where U had virtually no chance of seeing the tag. Would have had perfect view (at least on this play) if in same relative location on the outfield side of the basepath.

[briancurtin]

being on the inside gives you a great look, in my opinion, on the steal play at 2nd base. if you were behind the play, such as the positioning a little league umpire would get on a small diamond -- you have a runner sliding in, ball comes in on the other side of the runner (that you cant see), tag goes down...wheres the tag? wheres the ball? being in the inside of the diamond, you see the ball into the glove, see the glove go down, and you are on the side of the tag to see it.

i dont have trouble picking up the ball on a steal play. pretend the ball has a fish hook on it and you watch it and let it hook you into the play. it brings you right into whats going on and you see the tag right there.

it is possible that he just missed the call. it happens.

[Always Wright]

I tend to agree with Roy. I think you would get a better look at the steal play at 2nd if you were on the outfield side of the base. Let's think about the position we take on a play at any base when the throw is coming from the outfield. Do we go to the OF side of the base and take the throw over our shoulder? No, we stay on the IF side and see the throw and the runner coming together. When we take plays at the plate, we usually go to the 1st or 3rd base line extended - in foul territory. We don't move in front of the plate - unless you're Bruce Froemming.

Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base. If I am not mistaken, I think the reason for being on the IF side of 2nd, especially with a runner on 1st, is to get a better look at the force play - you definitely get a better look on that play from there. Then again, I may be mistaken. A lot of coaches and players think I often am.

Chris Wright

[GarthB]

From which side (inside or outside) can you follow the throw from F2 or F1 and see the ball to the glove and the tag, or lack thereof, and still see where the ball is prior to making a call?

Got it? Good, stand there.

[Tim C]

"Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base."

This is an incorrect statement.

Regards,

[mcrowder]

You will get straightlined by the runner if you work this play on the outside WAY more than you'll get straightlined by the fielder when working inside. You'll also, even when not straightlined, get blocked by the runner's sliding body, and lose sight of the actual tag, if you work outside.

Inside gives you a view of the ball, and 99% of the time the fielder, the glove, and the runner.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

I tend to agree with Roy. I think you would get a better look at the steal play at 2nd if you were on the outfield side of the base. Let's think about the position we take on a play at any base when the throw is coming from the outfield. Do we go to the OF side of the base and take the throw over our shoulder? No, we stay on the IF side and see the throw and the runner coming together. When we take plays at the plate, we usually go to the 1st or 3rd base line extended - in foul territory. We don't move in front of the plate - unless you're Bruce Froemming.

Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base. If I am not mistaken, I think the reason for being on the IF side of 2nd, especially with a runner on 1st, is to get a better look at the force play - you definitely get a better look on that play from there. Then again, I may be mistaken. A lot of coaches and players think I often am.

Chris Wright

Yup, you're mistaken. They only went outside when there was an R2 with no R1.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

I tend to agree with Roy. I think you would get a better look at the steal play at 2nd if you were on the outfield side of the base. Let's think about the position we take on a play at any base when the throw is coming from the outfield. Do we go to the OF side of the base and take the throw over our shoulder? No, we stay on the IF side and see the throw and the runner coming together. When we take plays at the plate, we usually go to the 1st or 3rd base line extended - in foul territory. We don't move in front of the plate - unless you're Bruce Froemming.

Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base. If I am not mistaken, I think the reason for being on the IF side of 2nd, especially with a runner on 1st, is to get a better look at the force play - you definitely get a better look on that play from there. Then again, I may be mistaken. A lot of coaches and players think I often am.

Chris Wright

We stay on the inside because more times than not, we have responsibilities at other bases as well.
Example, R1 stealing, throw goes into center field. How is BU going to beat R1 to third if he's outside?

[Always Wright]

Sorry but I am not mistaken. I have been a Yankees fan since the early 1960's. If you can, look at games from back then, or World Series games when an AL ump was working 2nd base and you will indeed see that they worked outside if there was a runner on 1st only. I am 100% certain of that.

Interesting that no one addressed my other point. If taking the throw over our shoulder gives us the best look at a play, why don't we do it on plays when the throw is coming from the outfield? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating working outside. There are other issues to consider; ctblu40 is correct in stating that we may have to cover another base. Additionally, we are much more likely to get in the 2B or SS's way when working outside. I was simply pointing out that I think Roy made an interesting point. Most of us have probably never had the opportunity to take a steal or pickoff play at 2B from the outside. In 1990, I had the opportunity to work the Junior Olympic Super Series in Coral Springs, FL. It was run by USBF, and their 4-man mechanics at the time called for U2 to work outside if there was R2 only. Let me tell you it felt very weird, but I had a couple of pickoff plays and I thought I had a great look at them. Just something to consider.

Chris Wright

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, here is a good reason for being on the inside:

The throw from the catcher is ideally received in front of the base, where the tag is applied to the runner, who is usually on the outfield side of the play. A properly positioned 2nd base umpire sees a)the fielder catch the throw and b)the tag of the runner, without having to look through the runner to do so.

Back in the "old" days, the umpires waved safe like a football referee signals an incomplete pass, by crossing the arms back and forth. They signaled "out" by extending their thumbs from their fists. Would you like to return to those mechanics too?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Sorry but I am not mistaken. I have been a Yankees fan since the early 1960's. If you can, look at games from back then, or World Series games when an AL ump was working 2nd base and you will indeed see that they worked outside if there was a runner on 1st only. I am 100% certain of that.

Interesting that no one addressed my other point. If taking the throw over our shoulder gives us the best look at a play, why don't we do it on plays when the throw is coming from the outfield? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating working outside. There are other issues to consider; ctblu40 is correct in stating that we may have to cover another base. Additionally, we are much more likely to get in the 2B or SS's way when working outside. I was simply pointing out that I think Roy made an interesting point. Most of us have probably never had the opportunity to take a steal or pickoff play at 2B from the outside. In 1990, I had the opportunity to work the Junior Olympic Super Series in Coral Springs, FL. It was run by USBF, and their 4-man mechanics at the time called for U2 to work outside if there was R2 only. Let me tell you it felt very weird, but I had a couple of pickoff plays and I thought I had a great look at them. Just something to consider.

Chris Wright

In the 1900-1910 period, MLB worked with 1 umpire. Why don't we go back to that?

The last incarnation of the AL outside mechanic had U2 behind only when there was nobody on first. I could live with that, although I like being inside, personally.

[Always Wright]

I am somewhat surprised at the responses to my point. First of all, I am not advocating that we go back to positioning ourselves on the OF side of 2B. As I said, there are good reasons to be on the inside. However, in my opinion, it is not because you would get a bad look at a steal play. In fact, you can get a really good look at that play from the outside. For that, it is suggested that I would like us to return to calling outs with our thumbs and go back to 1-man games. I know I am old but I didn't realize I was that old.

Again, I would like to make two main points. First, unless you work softball, you probably have never made a steal call or pickoff call at 2B from the outside. Therefore, it is difficult to make a comparison. While my experience is very limited, as I said in a previous post, I have worked a couple of games where I had pickoff plays at 2B from the outside and I had a very good look at the play. Perhaps if there is someone who works fastpitch softball who reads this, you can tell us what kind of look you get from the outside.

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

Chris Wright

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

First, unless you work softball, you probably have never made a steal call or pickoff call at 2B from the outside. Therefore, it is difficult to make a comparison. While my experience is very limited, as I said in a previous post, I have worked a couple of games where I had pickoff plays at 2B from the outside and I had a very good look at the play. Perhaps if there is someone who works fastpitch softball who reads this, you can tell us what kind of look you get from the outside.

im a young guy compared to most on this site, but when i worked LL on the small diamond not too long ago, we called these plays from the outside. my opinion is that its a pretty bad look. i wanted to work from the inside back then, but then you cant see runners leaving early and such. i got screened from the runner most of the time on steals from what i remember.

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

one thing i can think of is this: think of how many times a throw is coming into the plate and the catcher decides to take a few hard steps up and cut the ball then throw it to 2. or think of how many times a throw is off-line when coming into the plate. those two plays happen much, much more (in my games) than the same situations happening at second base, with a middle infielder cutting the ball or the throw to 2nd being way off. of course those plays do happen on occasion

steals at second, in most of the games i have done, are much more accurate than plays at home, where the ball is coming from much farther away. i wouldnt feel safe being in fair territory on a call at the plate with the wider range that the catcher has to move. i think an umpire in fair territory would have a much greater chance of getting in the way than an umpire in B or C.

[Tim C]

Chris:

You are simply wrong on the MLB mechanic.

Umpires have not worked as you mentioned since the early 30's (nee: See Bill Blair's definitive work on umpire history).

Continue to be a supporter of Little League mechanics as you wish.

Now it is true that I have not made a "pick off" call from the outside, but I have several times made a safe/out call from the outside when working the current four man mechanics as detailed by the CCA manual.

I am sorry I just don't get your point.

In a two man (and even three man) crew game we have the potential of multiple calls with multiple runners. Working inside gives an umpire the best compromise as to "all" actions that can occur on successive plays.

I would like to say something about "alternate views".

Durng the 1980's Dr. Tim Gallway wrote a book named "The Inner Game of Tennis". In the book Gallway talks of "alternative views." His basic point is that we get used to seeing something one way. We experience that over-and-over and think we see it well. We then try a different view and it "seems" to be better.

All it really is is "different".

We grow that into the thought that it is "better" when, in fact, it is just "different". That is what we are dealing with.

As I stated above:

I have made "slide and tag" calls at second base from the outside. It is simply a "different" look, not better not worse than working inside.

Keep trying to sell your "outside mechanic" . . . some may fall for it,

Just not me.

Regards,

[wsttxump]

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

Chris Wright


Chris,

On a play at the plate the technique that is now being taught is to be point of plate extended, follow throw in and either step 1st or 3rd base extended depending on throw or stay point ext. for the call. This allows you to easily move into position depending on throw for the correct angle. If you always work either line extended you have the chance of being straight lined or if there happens to be a train wreck, you being involved in it.
The same technique is one reason for the inside positioning at 2nd. Step or two either way can prevent the straight line. If you are outside a step or two is not going to help you. Also if positioned outside with runner on first you would be responsible for going out on catch/no-catch balls, which leaves 2nd open for touches or un-ordinary plays. If you are inside 2nd is always covered and wing men cover catches and remainder slide accordingly.