Positioning and Getting Help

[Kaliix]

I was working a weekend tournament for 12-13 year olds last summer. It was comprised of travel teams from the surrounding states, so the level of play was good.

I had this play happen. I was the BU. There were no outs with R2 and R1 and I am in "C". The BR pounds a pitch into the ground and it bounds towards F6. The ball is not a slow roller but it took some time getting to F6. R2 hesitates for a second and then breaks for third. With the speed of the ball and the hesitation of the runner, I am thinking that there is a good possibility of F6 going to third for the force since R2 hesitated and turning two will be close due to the speed of the ball. So admittedly I not really moving since I am anticipating a possible play at third.

Well don't you know F6 fields the ball and fires to F4 who makes a great quick turn and relays the ball on to first. I set to get the call at second and then turn and move to call the play at first. The throw was high and towards home. F1 stretches straight at me and manages to catch the ball before the BR gets to first. I sell the out call.

Immediately I notice the first base coach react in disgust. The stands behind him (filled with fans for the offense) are starting to go nuts. I am wondering what the commotion is about? Three or four seconds after the play I hear the head coach(?) yell from the bench, "Can we appeal the call?" I yell no and go back to "A".

My belief at the time was that I thought I had the call right and that my partner was likely not looking at the play because he would have responsibilities at third. When the coach politely asked later in between innings why I wouldn't ask my partner for help, I told him about his responsibilities at third and that I didn't think he would be looking. He bought the explanation.

Well as it turns out, my partner was looking and didn't break for third (he is newer than me) and when I asked him at the end of the inning if I he saw the play, he said that he had a great look at it and that the first baseman wasn't even close to having his foot on the bag. I pressed him and asked if he was sure, he repeated that he had a good look and his foot was obviously off the bag.

In retrospect, this was the worst call I made all year. In thinking about it, I missed it because for whatever reason I let my focus drift up to the glove for the catch and was looking at the foot with my peripheral vision. I was also not in the best of positions because of how the play developed.

The situation brings up some interesting points.

1)Should I have gone to my partner in that situation? I didn't because the request was yelled from the bench. If the coach came out and asked what I saw and said that F1 pulled his foot and would I check with the PU, I likely would have asked.
Should I still have asked? Explain why you would or wouldn't have checked?

2)Would the use of some signal from my partner have been useful in this situation to let me know he had something? Should the PU not have said anything or should he have come right up the line and offered help? Explain what you would have done differently?

3)SanDiegoSteve offered a good description a while back of how best to cover that sort of play. From reading, I guess this a difficult play for the BU to handle, especially without training. I didn't copy down his description before. Can anyone else offer a good break down of how they handle the situation above?

4) Any other thoughts?

[Sal Giaco]

Kaliix,

I'm sure this play, or similar to it, has happened to all of us. Getting straight lined does happen occasionally especially in two man with the play that you described.

As for going for help, you should, if at all possible, do it BEFORE you make the final call at first base. However, I know this is not possible all the time, especially on your play.

Generally speaking, if you get straight lined and the coach, fans and/or players come "unglued" on a potential pulled foot, there is a possibility that you may have missed something. Rather than jogging to your next position, perhaps you could have made some eye contact with your partner immediatly after making the call. One reason is to see where he was positioned at the time you made the call and two, to see if he has any non verbal reaction to the play (ie, "deer in the headlights" look).

When the coach ask if you could get some help, you could have called time and went over and calmly discussed the possible pulled foot with your partner. By the way, with R1 and R2 and a ground ball in the infield, the PU should have stayed home (not moved to third) which puts him at a good angle to see the pulled foot at first base.

After your partner tells you he clearly saw that F3's foot was off the bag, you walk over to the DEFENSIVE team's coach and explain how you were straight lined on the play. Since the PU had the best ANGLE and he clearly saw F3 pull his foot off the base, you are going to reverse the call and call the B/R safe.

Needless to say, he is probably not going to be happy but you have to tell him that while you understand his fustration, getting call RIGHT is what is most important. You will probably take a little heat but that's ok as long as he doesn't push it too far.

Also, do NOT let him go to your partner and argue with him. Explain that YOU changed the call, NOT your partner and if he has a "beef", it should be with you and not him. Don't worry about kicking this play - give yourself a pat on the back for coming on this site and looking for advice on how to handle this type of play. I think you made a mistake, but now that you have learned from it, I don't think you will make it again. Take care

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by Kaliix
1)Should I have gone to my partner in that situation? I didn't because the request was yelled from the bench. If the coach came out and asked what I saw and said that F1 pulled his foot and would I check with the PU, I likely would have asked.
Should I still have asked? Explain why you would or wouldn't have checked?

there are two main schools of thought here: get the call right no matter what, and do your own job. in my case, being 21 and working low college ball, i dont have much pull in these situations and for me to hold out on something like this would cause far too much trouble. in your situation kaliix, think about working with a 12 year old umpire saying "no i dont need help!" that probably wouldnt fly too far. i am confident in my actions and my calls, but being that im far younger than anyone else working in this group means to some that i dont have what it takes. i would like to stick to my call in this case, and prefer to never ask a PU to help when its not his call, but in order to keep hatred and ejections at a minimum, i will ask for help in this situation. note: if i am in doubt of F3 having the bag as a result of me being out of position, ill look for help much easier. i wrote this as if you are 100% certain that F3 is on the bag. so, even if i am certain, i still think i have to ask due to who i am but that doesnt apply to everyone.

2)Would the use of some signal from my partner have been useful in this situation to let me know he had something? Should the PU not have said anything or should he have come right up the line and offered help? Explain what you would have done differently?

as said recently, secret signals become un-secret very fast. i would stay as far away from this as possible. either make the call and get into position for the next one, or look for help immediately. if you must use some type of signal, it better be used incredibly discreetly and incredibly quick. theres no time to wait for the BU to flap his arms like a bird if thats the secret signal for a pulled foot. if you are going to do it, it must be flawless. even with that said, i dont recommend secret signals.

[Edited by briancurtin on Dec 2nd, 2005 at 02:19 PM]

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by briancurtin

...in my case, being 21 and working low college ball, i dont have much pull in these situations...
i am confident in my actions and my calls, but being that im far younger than anyone else working in this group means...

Brian,
This is not a matter of experience, age or skill level. This is about getting the call right. We can't always change a call just to get it right because some plays will not allow us to do it. However, in this particular situation, if done properly, this is a great example of how we can use our partners effectively to get the call right - regardless of the age, experience or skill level of the umpires on the field.

As much as the old schoolers hate to admit it, those days of living and dying with your own calls are fading quickly. Remember, in this play, if the BU goes to the PU for help, the PU does not change the call - he just gives the BU his observations of the play. It is the BU's decision on what he wants to do with that information. Ultimately, if the call is going to be reversed, the BU will have to do it, not the PU.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Dec 2nd, 2005 at 02:29 PM]

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Kaliix


My belief at the time was that I thought I had the call right and that my partner was likely not looking at the play because he would have responsibilities at third. When the coach politely asked later in between innings why I wouldn't ask my partner for help, I told him about his responsibilities at third and that I didn't think he would be looking. He bought the explanation.

Well as it turns out, my partner was looking and didn't break for third (he is newer than me) and when I asked him at the end of the inning if I he saw the play, he said that he had a great look at it and that the first baseman wasn't even close to having his foot on the bag. I pressed him and asked if he was sure, he repeated that he had a good look and his foot was obviously off the bag.

Kaliix, I am curious as to what responsibilities the PU had up at third base? If F6 threw to F4, who turned a double play, the PU's responsibility is first to watch for interference at 2B. His secondary responsibility is to watch the play at 1B in case of a pulled foot or swipe tag. His next job would be to see the touch of R2 at 3B, but that is relatively unimportant compared to the other two. Once the out at 2B was recorded, the PU no longer has a possible play at 3B, unless a run down occurs between home and third. The PU should have been watching the post-play at 2B, then his attention should have turned to the play at 1B. He should have done all of this from just out in front of the plate, as he has R2 if and when he advances to home.

Please help me picture what the PU would have been doing down at third in this situation. The BU has all calls on R2 at 3B. If the BR was judged safe on your appeal, the PU would have R2 in any rundown which ensued, and you would take the BR.

[Kaliix]

The plate umpires only responsibility at third, in this play, is the touch of R2, at third.

I was speaking of my belief at the time of the play. After the play happened, I went back to the red book and realized that I was wrong about the PU responsibilities. I also reread (a couple of times) the part that describes the double play mechanic with R2, R1.

But it sure sounded good to the head coach ;-)

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Kaliix, I am curious as to what responsibilities the PU had up at third base? If F6 threw to F4, who turned a double play, the PU's responsibility is first to watch for interference at 2B. His secondary responsibility is to watch the play at 1B in case of a pulled foot or swipe tag. His next job would be to see the touch of R2 at 3B, but that is relatively unimportant compared to the other two. Once the out at 2B was recorded, the PU no longer has a possible play at 3B, unless a run down occurs between home and third. The PU should have been watching the post-play at 2B, then his attention should have turned to the play at 1B. He should have done all of this from just out in front of the plate, as he has R2 if and when he advances to home.

Please help me picture what the PU would have been doing down at third in this situation. The BU has all calls on R2 at 3B. If the BR was judged safe on your appeal, the PU would have R2 in any rundown which ensued, and you would take the BR.

[Justme]

Kaliix:

Like Sal said, we have to get the call right. If you’re not 100% sure of your call then go to your partner for help no matter how the coach asks you to (the reaction from the coaches and the crowd are sometimes good indicators that you kicked the call). Change the call if necessary and if it’s possible. Changing the call (getting it right) would have prevented this from being the worst call you made this year. The days of living or dying with a call are coming to an end. You see that in MLB & NCAA.

In this situation with runners at 1st & 2nd (with no outs) and the defense goes for the double play 2nd to 1st. The runner at 2nd is probably going home. The PU should stay home (he should have signaled his intent to stay home to you). He should position himself slightly in foul territory a couple of feet toward 3rd (so he has a clear view of the play at 2nd). From this position the PU keeps everything in front of him. The PU needs to: look for interference at 2nd; watch for a pulled foot or swipe tag at 1st; see the runner touch home (and be ready for a play at home); and if possible see the runner touch 3rd.

In the 2-man system it is impossible to always be in the ‘perfect’ position to see 100% of the plays. You can rest assured that there is not an umpire anywhere who has not ‘kicked’ a call in the situation you described.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Justme,

You are correct about the PU positioning slightly up the third base line in foul territory. I had momentarily forgotten about R2 when I typed the positioning. I doubt if too many runners are going to try to score from second on a routine double play, but there is always the possibility of an overthrow at first.

[D-Man]

To avoid the problem, slow down your timing.

Even (especially) from the C position, on a double play whacker, check the throw quality and adjust if needed. See the whole play including, the catch (gloving) of the throw, the foot on, or real close, to the base, and THEN sell the call either way. Slower timing during whackers enhances the drama too, if you enjoy that sort of thing.

Hey, I'm a hypocrite. I am way too quick on those, but that's one of my improvement goals for 06.

D

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Brian,
This is not a matter of experience, age or skill level. This is about getting the call right.

i agree on getting it right, im just saying that even if there is the slightest bit of doubt in a coach's mind, even if i feel solid on the call (and do have it correct), asking for help supresses a situation. if you yourself were to be there making the exact same call, you could make it and all would be well with no questions.

about the living and dying with the call, it looks like things are moving away from that. the situation i posted was more about me having absolute certainty that the call was correct, not just me making a tough call without absolutely knowing the foot is on the bag and just sticking with whatever i guessed at.

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by briancurtin
... if you yourself were to be there making the exact same call, you could make it and all would be well with no questions.

Brian,
True, as you gain more experience and exposure, coaches will tend to accept your calls without question. However, if your scenario would have happened to me, I might have handled it this way...

Coach: Hey ump, can you get some help on that play?

Umpire: Coach, the ball beat the runner, that's my call all the way. I've got an out.

Coach: Did you see the first baseman's foot off the bag?

Umpire: From where I was positioned, he was on the base.

Coach: Can you ask your partner because it looked like the throw pulled him off the base

At this point, knowing you got straight lined and the whole stadium was in an uproar, including the first base coach, perhaps you could check with your partner just to be 100% sure.

Umpire: Coach - Fair enough, I will check with my partner but we are going to go with whatever he saw and we are not going to discuss it further after I check with him... ok

(I say this so the coach can't go argue with my partner if the call does not go his way)

This is just my opinion - I'm sure there are other ways to handle the situation. Hope it helps

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by PWL
Kaliix

Just react. Don't try to anticipate what they are going to do. The play you described sounded like a tailor made DP. Remember if there is the possibly of a play at home the BU should never leave, PERIOD.

PWL,

Did you mean the PU should never leave? Just clarifying.

[Rich]

Is anyone going to EVEN MENTION that the OP should've been moving towards the working area when the ball was hit?

This is the problem with this "get it right at all costs" mentality. We've stopped analyzing the mistake the OP made in the first place and spend all our time talking about how we can get help and how we can lean on our partner to bail us out for not doing our jobs.

It's a force play at any base. Why did the OP feel the need to gety close to any base? Get to the working area, let the ball turn you, and prepare for anything.

I've worked with partners in HS varsity games who will ask for help twice a game and think that it's perfectly OK to do so. Why? Is it poor training?

--Rich

[Tim C]

Now I'm sure a few of you have been waiting for me to answer this post.

Ya'll are waiting to laugh when I say: "In 6 million games I've never . . . " you get the drift.

But here is how I feel about asking for help:

a) I have always intoned "get your own calls!" I will always believe in personal responsibility in life and umpiring but let's put that aside.

b) Every game I have ever worked as a PU I have always been in position to give assistance to any umpire at any time. In fact I have worked extrememly hard to make sure that nothing ever stops me from being ready.

c) I am not, nor will I ever be, a proponet of "group hug umpiring" HOWEVER, if your umpire community tells you to get help (even after you call someone OUT!) then it is your job to do that. Ask for help as all these "college" umpires have directed.

d) Just remember that you are asking for assistance. You are not asking anyone to "make your call." We still are not at the time in history when the BU will turn to the PU on an advancing runner at second (also called a steal) and shout: "Hey Roger, what you got?"

e) In closing I will continue on my way of getting my own calls and will teach every umpire I touch: "Get help if you need to."

See was this all that hard?

Tee

[Rich]

Originally posted by thomaswhite

1)You are under no formal obligation to go to your partner and the coach (like your partner) did not use an appropriate communication protocol with you. Let the call stand.

Now an argument can be made that such a great amount of grief was shown that you might have taken that as a hint something was amiss but this still does not mean that you necessarily should be required to ask for assistance.

2) Yes, and I am in favor of having your partner, in this situation, calling "Time" and assisting in correcting the call. Pulled foot is difficult if not impossible to see depending on angle.

3)See above.

4)No. [/B]

The pulled foot is NOT difficult to see if the BU moves and gets the right angle.