Mechanics And Positioning

[Always Wright]

T:

Let me say for the third time - I am not advocating working outside. When I work 4-man games I work inside when there are runners on 1st and/or 2nd. I am simply saying that the look from the outside is a good look, in fact the same look we get when taking plays at the plate.

As to your point of major league umpires abandoning working outside in the 1930's: as I type this I am holding 2 books in my lap. The first is Yankee Stadium: 75 years of Drama, Glamor, and Glory, by Ray Robinson and Christopher Jennison. On pp92-93 it shows a photo from the 1951 season. In the photo, the Yanks have the bases loaded and the 2nd base umpire is positioned behind the bag. The second book is The Men In Blue: Conversations With Umpires, by Larry R. Gerlach. I quote from the chapter on Joe Paparella who umpired in the American League from 1946-65; "I strongly disagree with the National League about putting the second base umpire on the infield with a runner on first base. He should be in the outfield like in the American League for one reason and one reason only: if he gets hit with the ball, that kills the play. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. And you can get the same shot at a tag at second base from the outfield position if you hustle, maybe better because you watch the flight of the ball all the way instead of losing it when you turn." That quote is from Joe Paparella himself. So AL umps were working outside well beyond the 1930's. The first games I remember watching are from the 1960's and they were still working outside then.

Chris Wright

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

My response to this would be two-fold:

1) after a play at the plate, is there any possibility that an overthrow would cause the umpire to need to run and cover the next base? Answer, NO. There is no next base. Once the umpire makes his call at the plate, the only other possibility is another play at the plate. The BU, on the other hand, has a play at 2nd, the ball is overthrown, and he has to haul butt over to get an angle for the possible play on the runner at 3rd. From the outfield side, this is going to put him way behind the play at 3rd, probably looking through the backside of the runner and unable to clearly see the tag. Being on the inside simply puts the umpire in a better overall position.

2) throws coming from the outfield to the plate have more potential to end up farther off-line than any throws into 2nd base, and more potential for the PU to be in the way of subsequent plays by the catcher.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

T:

Let me say for the third time - I am not advocating working outside. When I work 4-man games I work inside when there are runners on 1st and/or 2nd. I am simply saying that the look from the outside is a good look, in fact the same look we get when taking plays at the plate.

As to your point of major league umpires abandoning working outside in the 1930's: as I type this I am holding 2 books in my lap. The first is Yankee Stadium: 75 years of Drama, Glamor, and Glory, by Ray Robinson and Christopher Jennison. On pp92-93 it shows a photo from the 1951 season. In the photo, the Yanks have the bases loaded and the 2nd base umpire is positioned behind the bag. The second book is The Men In Blue: Conversations With Umpires, by Larry R. Gerlach. I quote from the chapter on Joe Paparella who umpired in the American League from 1946-65; "I strongly disagree with the National League about putting the second base umpire on the infield with a runner on first base. He should be in the outfield like in the American League for one reason and one reason only: if he gets hit with the ball, that kills the play. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. And you can get the same shot at a tag at second base from the outfield position if you hustle, maybe better because you watch the flight of the ball all the way instead of losing it when you turn." That quote is from Joe Paparella himself. So AL umps were working outside well beyond the 1930's. The first games I remember watching are from the 1960's and they were still working outside then.

Chris Wright

And his reasoning is as dumb as can be. How many times does a ML umpire get hit with a ball while inside the diamond? Fine, maybe they did umpire that way back in the 50's....I'll give you that.

The reason the plate umpire can't take a throw that way is the unpredictable nature of the throw. A throw from the outfield can be way offline or cut by a defender and thrown to the plate. There's no way a PU could start behind the plate, come to a fixed point in front of the plate, and let a throw turn him to a play at the plate. Also, since the runner doesn't have to remain in contact with the plate, slides can be more unpredictable as well. And what if F2 wants to make a throw himself?

I've worked softball. Calling steals at second are more difficult because there's a body between the umpire and the tag.

Finally, what would you do on a 6-4-3 DP, for example? It seems like that type of play would put the umpire right in the path of the throw -- if the throw gets by F4, it doesn't seem like a very safe place to be.

Using "it was done before" allows us to bring in any other practice that was done before. It's the logic, in a sense, that you're using.

[aceholleran]

I've done a slew of games in 90- and 60-foot domains.

Simply put, I wanna be inside.

As for the parallel with a throw from OF, I quote Fronny, who sez it quite eloquently:

The reason the plate umpire can't take a throw that way is the unpredictable nature of the throw. A throw from the outfield can be way offline or cut by a defender and thrown to the plate. There's no way a PU could start behind the plate, come to a fixed point in front of the plate, and let a throw turn him to a play at the plate. Also, since the runner doesn't have to remain in contact with the plate, slides can be more unpredictable as well. And what if F2 wants to make a throw himself?

Ace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

I've done a slew of games in 90- and 60-foot domains.

Simply put, I wanna be inside.

As for the parallel with a throw from OF, I quote Fronny, who sez it quite eloquently:

The reason the plate umpire can't take a throw that way is the unpredictable nature of the throw. A throw from the outfield can be way offline or cut by a defender and thrown to the plate. There's no way a PU could start behind the plate, come to a fixed point in front of the plate, and let a throw turn him to a play at the plate. Also, since the runner doesn't have to remain in contact with the plate, slides can be more unpredictable as well. And what if F2 wants to make a throw himself?

Ace

Ace, you dog, how have you been? Haven't heard from you in ages. Sadly, I now own both a Saab and a minivan, although my daughter is not yet old enough where my wife could be confused with a soccer mom. Yet.

[Always Wright]

I plan on this being my last post to this thread and I will limit my response to the history of the AL using this mechanic of having U2 working outside. Specifically I am addressing Rich and T. I asked a young man in my association to take a look at this thread. He attended the Jim Evans school this past January. He relayed to me that Evans spoke about this very topic in class. In fact, Evans told a story of how, early in his career, he and Dave Phillips were assigned to Nestor Chylak's (a pretty fair umpire) crew. Chylak insisted that U2 work outside. Evans and Phillips did not like that mechanic and worked inside. However, they quickly started complying with Chylak's directives as soon as he started fining them. Since Evans did not join the AL staff until 1971 I hope this puts to rest the idea that major league umps abandoned having U2 work outside in the 1930's. There was at least 1 AL crew still working that way in the 1970's.