Mechanics And Positioning

[Always Wright]

Sorry but I am not mistaken. I have been a Yankees fan since the early 1960's. If you can, look at games from back then, or World Series games when an AL ump was working 2nd base and you will indeed see that they worked outside if there was a runner on 1st only. I am 100% certain of that.

Interesting that no one addressed my other point. If taking the throw over our shoulder gives us the best look at a play, why don't we do it on plays when the throw is coming from the outfield? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating working outside. There are other issues to consider; ctblu40 is correct in stating that we may have to cover another base. Additionally, we are much more likely to get in the 2B or SS's way when working outside. I was simply pointing out that I think Roy made an interesting point. Most of us have probably never had the opportunity to take a steal or pickoff play at 2B from the outside. In 1990, I had the opportunity to work the Junior Olympic Super Series in Coral Springs, FL. It was run by USBF, and their 4-man mechanics at the time called for U2 to work outside if there was R2 only. Let me tell you it felt very weird, but I had a couple of pickoff plays and I thought I had a great look at them. Just something to consider.

Chris Wright

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, here is a good reason for being on the inside:

The throw from the catcher is ideally received in front of the base, where the tag is applied to the runner, who is usually on the outfield side of the play. A properly positioned 2nd base umpire sees a)the fielder catch the throw and b)the tag of the runner, without having to look through the runner to do so.

Back in the "old" days, the umpires waved safe like a football referee signals an incomplete pass, by crossing the arms back and forth. They signaled "out" by extending their thumbs from their fists. Would you like to return to those mechanics too?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Sorry but I am not mistaken. I have been a Yankees fan since the early 1960's. If you can, look at games from back then, or World Series games when an AL ump was working 2nd base and you will indeed see that they worked outside if there was a runner on 1st only. I am 100% certain of that.

Interesting that no one addressed my other point. If taking the throw over our shoulder gives us the best look at a play, why don't we do it on plays when the throw is coming from the outfield? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating working outside. There are other issues to consider; ctblu40 is correct in stating that we may have to cover another base. Additionally, we are much more likely to get in the 2B or SS's way when working outside. I was simply pointing out that I think Roy made an interesting point. Most of us have probably never had the opportunity to take a steal or pickoff play at 2B from the outside. In 1990, I had the opportunity to work the Junior Olympic Super Series in Coral Springs, FL. It was run by USBF, and their 4-man mechanics at the time called for U2 to work outside if there was R2 only. Let me tell you it felt very weird, but I had a couple of pickoff plays and I thought I had a great look at them. Just something to consider.

Chris Wright

In the 1900-1910 period, MLB worked with 1 umpire. Why don't we go back to that?

The last incarnation of the AL outside mechanic had U2 behind only when there was nobody on first. I could live with that, although I like being inside, personally.

[Always Wright]

I am somewhat surprised at the responses to my point. First of all, I am not advocating that we go back to positioning ourselves on the OF side of 2B. As I said, there are good reasons to be on the inside. However, in my opinion, it is not because you would get a bad look at a steal play. In fact, you can get a really good look at that play from the outside. For that, it is suggested that I would like us to return to calling outs with our thumbs and go back to 1-man games. I know I am old but I didn't realize I was that old.

Again, I would like to make two main points. First, unless you work softball, you probably have never made a steal call or pickoff call at 2B from the outside. Therefore, it is difficult to make a comparison. While my experience is very limited, as I said in a previous post, I have worked a couple of games where I had pickoff plays at 2B from the outside and I had a very good look at the play. Perhaps if there is someone who works fastpitch softball who reads this, you can tell us what kind of look you get from the outside.

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

Chris Wright

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

First, unless you work softball, you probably have never made a steal call or pickoff call at 2B from the outside. Therefore, it is difficult to make a comparison. While my experience is very limited, as I said in a previous post, I have worked a couple of games where I had pickoff plays at 2B from the outside and I had a very good look at the play. Perhaps if there is someone who works fastpitch softball who reads this, you can tell us what kind of look you get from the outside.

im a young guy compared to most on this site, but when i worked LL on the small diamond not too long ago, we called these plays from the outside. my opinion is that its a pretty bad look. i wanted to work from the inside back then, but then you cant see runners leaving early and such. i got screened from the runner most of the time on steals from what i remember.

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

one thing i can think of is this: think of how many times a throw is coming into the plate and the catcher decides to take a few hard steps up and cut the ball then throw it to 2. or think of how many times a throw is off-line when coming into the plate. those two plays happen much, much more (in my games) than the same situations happening at second base, with a middle infielder cutting the ball or the throw to 2nd being way off. of course those plays do happen on occasion

steals at second, in most of the games i have done, are much more accurate than plays at home, where the ball is coming from much farther away. i wouldnt feel safe being in fair territory on a call at the plate with the wider range that the catcher has to move. i think an umpire in fair territory would have a much greater chance of getting in the way than an umpire in B or C.

[Tim C]

Chris:

You are simply wrong on the MLB mechanic.

Umpires have not worked as you mentioned since the early 30's (nee: See Bill Blair's definitive work on umpire history).

Continue to be a supporter of Little League mechanics as you wish.

Now it is true that I have not made a "pick off" call from the outside, but I have several times made a safe/out call from the outside when working the current four man mechanics as detailed by the CCA manual.

I am sorry I just don't get your point.

In a two man (and even three man) crew game we have the potential of multiple calls with multiple runners. Working inside gives an umpire the best compromise as to "all" actions that can occur on successive plays.

I would like to say something about "alternate views".

Durng the 1980's Dr. Tim Gallway wrote a book named "The Inner Game of Tennis". In the book Gallway talks of "alternative views." His basic point is that we get used to seeing something one way. We experience that over-and-over and think we see it well. We then try a different view and it "seems" to be better.

All it really is is "different".

We grow that into the thought that it is "better" when, in fact, it is just "different". That is what we are dealing with.

As I stated above:

I have made "slide and tag" calls at second base from the outside. It is simply a "different" look, not better not worse than working inside.

Keep trying to sell your "outside mechanic" . . . some may fall for it,

Just not me.

Regards,

[wsttxump]

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

Chris Wright


Chris,

On a play at the plate the technique that is now being taught is to be point of plate extended, follow throw in and either step 1st or 3rd base extended depending on throw or stay point ext. for the call. This allows you to easily move into position depending on throw for the correct angle. If you always work either line extended you have the chance of being straight lined or if there happens to be a train wreck, you being involved in it.
The same technique is one reason for the inside positioning at 2nd. Step or two either way can prevent the straight line. If you are outside a step or two is not going to help you. Also if positioned outside with runner on first you would be responsible for going out on catch/no-catch balls, which leaves 2nd open for touches or un-ordinary plays. If you are inside 2nd is always covered and wing men cover catches and remainder slide accordingly.

[Always Wright]

T:

Let me say for the third time - I am not advocating working outside. When I work 4-man games I work inside when there are runners on 1st and/or 2nd. I am simply saying that the look from the outside is a good look, in fact the same look we get when taking plays at the plate.

As to your point of major league umpires abandoning working outside in the 1930's: as I type this I am holding 2 books in my lap. The first is Yankee Stadium: 75 years of Drama, Glamor, and Glory, by Ray Robinson and Christopher Jennison. On pp92-93 it shows a photo from the 1951 season. In the photo, the Yanks have the bases loaded and the 2nd base umpire is positioned behind the bag. The second book is The Men In Blue: Conversations With Umpires, by Larry R. Gerlach. I quote from the chapter on Joe Paparella who umpired in the American League from 1946-65; "I strongly disagree with the National League about putting the second base umpire on the infield with a runner on first base. He should be in the outfield like in the American League for one reason and one reason only: if he gets hit with the ball, that kills the play. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. And you can get the same shot at a tag at second base from the outfield position if you hustle, maybe better because you watch the flight of the ball all the way instead of losing it when you turn." That quote is from Joe Paparella himself. So AL umps were working outside well beyond the 1930's. The first games I remember watching are from the 1960's and they were still working outside then.

Chris Wright

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

T:

Let me say for the third time - I am not advocating working outside. When I work 4-man games I work inside when there are runners on 1st and/or 2nd. I am simply saying that the look from the outside is a good look, in fact the same look we get when taking plays at the plate.

As to your point of major league umpires abandoning working outside in the 1930's: as I type this I am holding 2 books in my lap. The first is Yankee Stadium: 75 years of Drama, Glamor, and Glory, by Ray Robinson and Christopher Jennison. On pp92-93 it shows a photo from the 1951 season. In the photo, the Yanks have the bases loaded and the 2nd base umpire is positioned behind the bag. The second book is The Men In Blue: Conversations With Umpires, by Larry R. Gerlach. I quote from the chapter on Joe Paparella who umpired in the American League from 1946-65; "I strongly disagree with the National League about putting the second base umpire on the infield with a runner on first base. He should be in the outfield like in the American League for one reason and one reason only: if he gets hit with the ball, that kills the play. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. And you can get the same shot at a tag at second base from the outfield position if you hustle, maybe better because you watch the flight of the ball all the way instead of losing it when you turn." That quote is from Joe Paparella himself. So AL umps were working outside well beyond the 1930's. The first games I remember watching are from the 1960's and they were still working outside then.

Chris Wright

And his reasoning is as dumb as can be. How many times does a ML umpire get hit with a ball while inside the diamond? Fine, maybe they did umpire that way back in the 50's....I'll give you that.

The reason the plate umpire can't take a throw that way is the unpredictable nature of the throw. A throw from the outfield can be way offline or cut by a defender and thrown to the plate. There's no way a PU could start behind the plate, come to a fixed point in front of the plate, and let a throw turn him to a play at the plate. Also, since the runner doesn't have to remain in contact with the plate, slides can be more unpredictable as well. And what if F2 wants to make a throw himself?

I've worked softball. Calling steals at second are more difficult because there's a body between the umpire and the tag.

Finally, what would you do on a 6-4-3 DP, for example? It seems like that type of play would put the umpire right in the path of the throw -- if the throw gets by F4, it doesn't seem like a very safe place to be.

Using "it was done before" allows us to bring in any other practice that was done before. It's the logic, in a sense, that you're using.

[aceholleran]

I've done a slew of games in 90- and 60-foot domains.

Simply put, I wanna be inside.

As for the parallel with a throw from OF, I quote Fronny, who sez it quite eloquently:

The reason the plate umpire can't take a throw that way is the unpredictable nature of the throw. A throw from the outfield can be way offline or cut by a defender and thrown to the plate. There's no way a PU could start behind the plate, come to a fixed point in front of the plate, and let a throw turn him to a play at the plate. Also, since the runner doesn't have to remain in contact with the plate, slides can be more unpredictable as well. And what if F2 wants to make a throw himself?

Ace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Finally, and this is the point that no one has addressed yet and I would really like someone respond to, is plays at other bases. Let's picture for example, a play at home with the throw coming from straightaway CF. This is the exact mirror image of a steal at 2B. Those of you who think taking the steal play at 2B from the inside gives you the absolute best look at that play - do you follow that same positioning at the plate? Do you come into fair territory, shaded slightly up the 3B line, face the throw and have it turn you into the play at the plate? I think probably not (unless you are Bruce Froemming). You probably stay in foul territory on either the 1B or 3B line extended. That is precisely the look you would get at 2B from the outfield side. And that's the main point I wished to make. Please respond to that.

My response to this would be two-fold:

1) after a play at the plate, is there any possibility that an overthrow would cause the umpire to need to run and cover the next base? Answer, NO. There is no next base. Once the umpire makes his call at the plate, the only other possibility is another play at the plate. The BU, on the other hand, has a play at 2nd, the ball is overthrown, and he has to haul butt over to get an angle for the possible play on the runner at 3rd. From the outfield side, this is going to put him way behind the play at 3rd, probably looking through the backside of the runner and unable to clearly see the tag. Being on the inside simply puts the umpire in a better overall position.

2) throws coming from the outfield to the plate have more potential to end up farther off-line than any throws into 2nd base, and more potential for the PU to be in the way of subsequent plays by the catcher.