Obstruction or interference - Page 6

GarthB · #76 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 04:36pm

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Originally posted by BigUmp56

Quote:

Originally posted by GarthB
In the HR case book play the ball was dead so there is no interference by the coach during a dead ball.

So, playing devil;s advocate: Batter hits the ball over the center field fence. He rounds first and misses the bag. The first base coach reaches out and grabs him and pulls him back to touch the bag.

Whatcha got?

Good question Mr. Benham. I have coaches interference here. The base coach has attempted to deprive the defense's opportunity to appeal. I might also be sending the base coach to the parking lot for coming on the field.

I wondered back in 1999 when Big Mac hit his record breaking home run and missed first base if coaches interference might have been called had it not been such a big play.

Tim.

If Ford Frick had been the umpire, McGwire would have been called out.

Carl Childress · #77 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BigUmp56

Quote:

Originally posted by GarthB
In the HR case book play the ball was dead so there is no interference by the coach during a dead ball.

So, playing devil;s advocate: Batter hits the ball over the center field fence. He rounds first and misses the bag. The first base coach reaches out and grabs him and pulls him back to touch the bag.

Whatcha got?

Good question Mr. Benham. I have coaches interference here. The base coach has attempted to deprive the defense's opportunity to appeal. I might also be sending the base coach to the parking lot for coming on the field.

I wondered back in 1999 when Big Mac hit his record breaking home run and missed first base if coaches interference might have been called had it not been such a big play.

Tim.

My game journal is approaching 4000 games. In all that time, I've had ONE interference call on a first-base coach. The third-base coach, my American Legion partner the previous summer, came rushing down: "When I saw Bobby do it, I said to myself, 'He's gonna call it!'"

R1. He takes his lead, the pitcher throws over, he goes back into the base standing up. The first baseman tags him strongly a la Kent Hrbek.

Parenthetically, here's what baseballlibrary.com has to say about that famous play that helped Minnesota win the 1991 World Series:

[Gant tries to return to first.] Although Gant reached the bag safely, he was struggling to keep his balance when Hrbek subtly pushed his leg off the base and applied a tag. Gant was called out, ending the inning.

The subtle push was a hard tag on the air-borne leg.

Gant fell off the base. R1 at Pharr didn't - because the first-base coach steadied him until he regained his balance. Old Smitty, in B, did nothing.

I called him out.

When Smitty wanted to know why I'd busted in on "his" play, I said that I knew he'd been straightlined and couldn't see. Smitty was not known for busting to get an angle.

WhatWuzThatBlue · #78 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 04:51pm

So, I guess I was correct? I didn't see you acknowledge such, just repeated requests to test my knowledge and judgement. I imagine that if I kicked it you would have been all over the post.

Does McNeely speak for the NFHS anymore? I read somewhere that he is no longer doing that.

ManInBlue · #79 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 07:45pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG
[B]

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Originally posted by ManInBlue

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Originally posted by DG

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Originally posted by ManInBlue

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Originally posted by DG

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Originally posted by Carl Childress

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But the runner was protected BY RULE to third, which he made safely. As Roland points out, there's not enough information to determine whether the runner should be protected by umpire judgment to home.

Thus, my final answer: C. When he made his protected base, he advanced at his own risk. During that advance, however short it was, the coach interfered. Delayed dead ball (allowing the defense to play on the batter-runner) followed by an out.

Let's assume for the sake of continuing this discussion, that the umpire instantly recognized a situation where the obstructed runner should be awarded home, no question about it, based on the 3B man's obstruction, position of the ball, etc. Shortly after making this decision, the runner trips on 3B and is helped to his feet by the 3B coach. What do we have now? I have my answer ready.

Is he helped to his feet, or helped in the direction of home? I see this as two seperate situations.

First, there is the obligation to run the bases correctly, even on an award. (Award 1B to 3B, missed 2B can get an out on appeal) Second, is the coach assisting him in running the bases?

Coach assistance - OUT. Coach just picks the kid up - Award home and keep playing. JMO

Is the coach assisting him running the bases by helping him to his feet? Are you kidding me?

No, I'm not, actually. Although I argue that the HR situation doesn't have enough similarities to this play to be used as comparison, in this case I will use it. The coach can pick a kid up that trips over a base while "being awarded" his four bases on a HR. That's legal, so I see the same type of situation unfolding in your hypothetical situation. Picking him up and helping him advance have been differentiated in the rules during the award.

So, no, I'm not kidding you. Please feel free to offer a rebuttal. You posted a hypothetical situation. I posted a question that could arise in the situation. I guess I could be playing the part of the Devil's Advocate here. But I see that the question has some relevence. Helping a runner to his feet HAS TO BE assiting the runner (JMHO), unless the ball is dead.

I mean no offense by the following statement, but...You seem to be a well versed official. You're responses that I've seen make valid points. I would hope that "Are you kidding me?" isn't the best reply to this that you have. I would expect more from someone like you. I would expect a thorough explaination of why you think this is such a ridiculous question. I'm sure I have just thoroughly pissed you off. So, I await the barrage that is coming.

In the HR case book play the ball was dead so there is no interference by the coach during a dead ball.

In subsequent cases the ball is live, and any time the coach at 3B helps a runner to his feet he is interfering, and an out should be recorded. Some posters here like to post erroneous postings just to get a rise

That explains it. I was leaning toward the dead ball to differentiate the two. I could just see the fireworks when the out is called after awarding home.

Thanks for clarifying your view, and for reinforcing my thoughts.

JJ · #80 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 10:43pm

As I said, "C. Just because."

JJ

largeone59 · #81 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 11:15pm

Oddly enough, i found a similar play on a rules quiz (http://www.macroweb.com/ibrules/bqpg0105.htm).

Here's the play (OBR):

Runner on 2nd base with two outs. Batter hits one over the fence. As R2 rounds third he trips on the base and falls down. The third base coach helps him up and he continues home. What's the call?

Answer: Nobody is out and both runs count.

Reference: Rules 5.02, 7.05(a)

Explanation: As long as all runners legally touch the bases while advancing to home, they can touch anybody they wish. The batter or any of the runners could be carried around the bases on the shoulders of his teammates as long as he comes down and touches each base as he reaches it.
Question written by: Jim Booth, visit Jim's Umpire's Corner.

Is this accurate?

ManInBlue · #82 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 30, 2005, 11:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by largeone59
Oddly enough, i found a similar play on a rules quiz (http://www.macroweb.com/ibrules/bqpg0105.htm).

Here's the play (OBR):

Runner on 2nd base with two outs. Batter hits one over the fence. As R2 rounds third he trips on the base and falls down. The third base coach helps him up and he continues home. What's the call?

Answer: Nobody is out and both runs count.

Reference: Rules 5.02, 7.05(a)

Explanation: As long as all runners legally touch the bases while advancing to home, they can touch anybody they wish. The batter or any of the runners could be carried around the bases on the shoulders of his teammates as long as he comes down and touches each base as he reaches it.
Question written by: Jim Booth, visit Jim's Umpire's Corner.

Is this accurate?

I've seen this, too. Don't recall reading the explanation, though. I guess as long as the preceding runner isn't passed, he could be carried. That's a bit of a stretch for a simple, "the ball was dead" explanation, which is the explanation given here.

SanDiegoSteve · #83 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 12:04am

I've read that as long as a preceding runner is not passed, that it is legal to assist a runner when the ball is dead. The following runner may help push the runner in front of him, just as long as he does not pass him up.

Where I read this, I can't seem to find, but it was an official rule interp of some sort.

WhatWuzThatBlue · #84 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 12:29am

Okay, let's see...

We have a bases loaded fence clearing home run in a Fed game. The batters were off on the pitch since it was 3-2 and the kid on first is Mr. Track Star! They watch the ball clear and start the trot, except that Mr. Track Star is now on the heals of Mr. Piano Carrier. PC trips over third and goes down. The third basecoach sees what is happening and puts up the stop sign to TS, only he is mugging for the home team fans and celebrating that they've now taken the lead against a bitter rival. The third base coach puts his hands out and stops the runner by pushing him in the chest. TS snaps out of it and grins sheepishly that he almost passed PC! You are a terrific umpire and have kept the home team back from play and are watching all of the action at third. What do you call?

This is not as Third World as it sounds. I had a batter hit one out in a game and he was sprinting around first since he didn't know if it had enough to carry the right field fence. The runner on first went half way, thought it was caught and actually collided with the batter as he got towards first! The first base coach picked up the batter and screamed at the runner. It is a strange game...

David B · #85 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 09:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Okay, let's see...

We have a bases loaded fence clearing home run in a Fed game. The batters were off on the pitch since it was 3-2 and the kid on first is Mr. Track Star! They watch the ball clear and start the trot, except that Mr. Track Star is now on the heals of Mr. Piano Carrier. PC trips over third and goes down. The third basecoach sees what is happening and puts up the stop sign to TS, only he is mugging for the home team fans and celebrating that they've now taken the lead against a bitter rival. The third base coach puts his hands out and stops the runner by pushing him in the chest. TS snaps out of it and grins sheepishly that he almost passed PC! You are a terrific umpire and have kept the home team back from play and are watching all of the action at third. What do you call?

This is not as Third World as it sounds. I had a batter hit one out in a game and he was sprinting around first since he didn't know if it had enough to carry the right field fence. The runner on first went half way, thought it was caught and actually collided with the batter as he got towards first! The first base coach picked up the batter and screamed at the runner. It is a strange game...

What runner at third?

Actually, it would depend on how well I knew the coach as to the stern warning that he would receive.

thanks
David

SanDiegoSteve · #86 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 12:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Okay, let's see...

We have a bases loaded fence clearing home run in a Fed game. The batters were off on the pitch since it was 3-2 and the kid on first is Mr. Track Star! They watch the ball clear and start the trot, except that Mr. Track Star is now on the heals of Mr. Piano Carrier.

The batters were off on the pitch? How many batters were there?

Was Mr. Track Star a faith healer as he was on Mr. Piano Carrier's heals?

WhatWuzThatBlue · #87 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 05:34pm

That's what happens when you type too fast. Spell check would never catch the latter and the first was just thinking ahead of my fingers.

Regardless, SDS, I did not see your answer - again.

As for a warning - wholly inappropriate unless this game was t-ball level. It was stated as being otherwise.

SanDiegoSteve · #88 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 05:49pm

WWWWWWWWTTTTTTTBBBBBB,

In all fairness, the spell check doesn't work on this site.
I only mentioned it because of that fourth grade writing comment a while back.

My answer is that it's O-tay! The coach can pick that runner up, dust him off, spin him around like a top, kick him in the peepee, and point him at the next base, and as long as the following runner (Mr. Speedy) doesn't pass him, no problem. When the ball is dead, interference cannot occur. Period.

Okay, he also can punch Mr. Track Star in the grill as far as I'm concerned. Ball's dead. Playing action ends when ball is dead, by rule.

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Dec 1st, 2005 at 05:46 PM]

WhatWuzThatBlue · #89 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 06:02pm

Spell check exists on my computer though. Again, you tend to read more into it than was provided.

You need to rethink your answer. The coach prevented the runner from passing the one on the ground and causing an out. His actions are illegal - dead ball or not. Check 5-1-2f to see what it means.

SanDiegoSteve · #90 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 01, 2005, 06:17pm

Read 5-1-2(f) again carefully. Actually, start with 5-1-2. It is for a delayed dead ball situation. That isn't applicable in the case of an over the fence homerun. The ball immediately became dead the second it left the park. 5-1-2(f) is for when a ball is alive and in play. Find anywhere in the rules that says coaches interference can occur when the ball is dead, and then get back to me. But not until.