You make the call

[Atl Blue]

windy says:
The runner on thrid will always be out for returning to the base he is no longer entitled to occupy.

OK, I'll buy that, as it's written. The problem with that reasoning though, is that some other things are about to happen that will mean that he IS entitled to return to the base. Hang on, we'll get there.

He must advance and has no right to cause another runner to be put out.

As long as he is forced, this is correct. Problem is (again), things can happen that remove the force. If so, he no longer HAS to advance.

As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced?

I'm not calling R2 out on a force. DEPENDING ON THE ORDER OF THE TAG however, I might be calling R2 out for being on a bag to which he is not entitled and being tagged.

What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?

I never called R2 out on a FORCE.

The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.

I agree completely. No matter what happens here, R1 is going to be out.

Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is.

That's exactly what I would do, depending on the ORDER they were tagged. Now, I'll be the first to admit, it is going to have to be a very good and very quick thinking umpire to get this right, but I was willing to put you in that category before now.

I prefer to let the rules do the talking.

What rules? The only rule you have quoted is, "Whoever f**d up is out." That's an interesting concept. And sometimes it's true. Unfortunately, it's not ALWAYS true, and that's why it's not printed in ANY rule book that I have.


from tornado:

As soon as R2 is safe at 3rd, the force is removed.

Well, it's removed for R2, but it's not removed for R3. But I NEVER called R2 out on a force.

back to windy:

That's my point. The guys that f-d up are the runner who didn't vacate third

Originally, that's true. But things change. I'll get there, I promise.

and the runner from first that is trying to occupy a base that is already legally and safely occupied.

I agree completely regarding R1. He is dead meat. But he plays an important part in our little play here. Stick with me.

If our brother from Atl calls R2 (who has advanced to third) out for any reason other than he stepped off the base and was tagged, he is incorrect.

Sorry, that's just not true.

The other two are dead. No matter what order!

Again, simply not true.

OK, I promised to get you to the right answer here. Let's go back to the beginning. It seems to be the only way to get this through.

A runner that is forced from a base has no right to the previous base. I think we are all OK with that one.
Once a force is removed, a runner that might have previously been forced must be tagged to be out. Still OK, aren't we?

IF there is no force, and two runners are on the same base, the leading runner is entitled to the base, the trail runner has no rights to the base, and the trail runner is out if tagged, even if he is on the base.

A few cases to prove these points. R1, no outs, hot shot grounder to F3, R1 freezes on 1B. F3 comes over and ignores R1, and tags the base. Once F3 tagged 1B, the BR is out, and therefore the force is removed on R1. Had R1 been tagged before the base was tagged (while still forced), R1 would have been out, then F3 could have tagged the base for a DP. This is the first case of the "order of the tag crap" meaning something.

OK, let's move to the case of the reverse double play (yes, there is such a thing. See Rule 10 if a definition is needed). R1, ground ball to F3, but R1 was going this time. F3 steps on 1B (BR now out), and fires to F6 covering 2B. Is R1 forced, or must he be tagged? Well, of course he must be tagged, as the force was removed when F3 stepped on 1B. In fact, if R1 wants to reverse course and return to 1B, he is now free to do so.

Another concept: R2, no outs. Ground ball to F4, R2 off on contact. F4, instead of taking the easy play at 1B, decides to play on the lead runner, and throws to F5. R2 sees the throw and gets into an extended rundown between 2B and 3B. The BR, being a good runner, sees the rundown and trots into 2B. The defense chases R2 back to 2B, so now we have R2 and BR both standing on 2B. Both are tagged (in whatever order you want, in this case, the order makes no difference!). It is the BR that is out. R2 is the lead runner, he is not forced to leave 2B, it's his base.

OK, now for the graduate level stuff, we are going to combine these two concepts. Back to our original play, with all three runners standing on 3B. If the defense tags R2 first, nothing has happened, as R2 reached his "forced to" base, and 3B is his (at the moment). If R3 is tagged first, R3 is out; he was forced home on the play, and standing on 3B gives him no refuge.

But, (and it is a BIG but), if R1 is tagged first, he is out immediately; he has no reason to be on 3B, and has no safety there. But since R1 is out immediately, the force that was on before is now removed. A trail runner has been called out, so anyone in front of him is no longer forced to go anywhere. R3 does not have to run. Since he does not have to advance, he is the lead runner, and 3B belongs to him. Now, if both R2 and R3 are tagged (in whatever order you want, we're back to the order not meaning anything), R2 is out. He is the trail runner, on a base to which the lead runner is not forced to leave.

Well, guess what? R2 did everything he was supposed to do. It was his teammates that f*d up, but R2 is out!

So the "order of the tag crap" can matter. I will be the first to admit (and have shown), it doesn't ALWAYS matter, but there are times that it does. To make a blanket statement that it never does is simply wrong, as is the statement that R2 can never be out in this scenario.

If this does not convince you, I have failed as a teacher.


As for Luciano, that one is opinion, not rule, so I can't offer the same support as above. I do know that his evaluations were the lowest (or near lowest) in the league, primarily because he decided he was the show, that people were coming to see him umpire. While he obviously had some talent to get to the show, he let it get to his head, and he lost all credibility. The same players that may have voted him a great ump at one point, later hated his clown act, and voted him one of the worst umpires in the league. I couldn't care less about Earl Weaver, and I think he went overboard WAY too often, but Luciano's animosity and clownish behavior had no business on the baseball field.

[DG]

Longest post I ever seen. Glad I didn't read all of it. However, I will agree that order of tag matters, and if there are 3 runners in contact with 3B, 2 of them don't belong and if the defense tags all 3 I will get at least 2 outs, regardless of what order they tagged them in. And then, does it really matter who is left? Will there be an argument?

[WindyCityBlue]

As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced?

I'm not calling R2 out on a force. DEPENDING ON THE ORDER OF THE TAG however, I might be calling R2 out for being on a bag to which he is not entitled and being tagged.

Why is he not entitled? He was FORCED to advance on the basehit!

What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?

I never called R2 out on a FORCE.

I know, that is the only correct thing you've said.
So how is he out when he gets tagged? He is entitled to that base.

The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.

I agree completely. No matter what happens here, R1 is going to be out.

Yes, no matter what order they are tagged, this guy is out. Now who else f*d up? Oh, the guy on third - and yep, he's out, too.

Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is.

That's exactly what I would do, depending on the ORDER they were tagged. Now, I'll be the first to admit, it is going to have to be a very good and very quick thinking umpire to get this right, but I was willing to put you in that category before now.

So, if the runner from second gets tagged first, while engaging the bag, he is out because you say he is not entitled to touch that bag? C'mon. Where else is he supposed to go? He can't stay at his bag, because R1 is advancing and B1 will be on first.

I prefer to let the rules do the talking.

What rules? The only rule you have quoted is, "Whoever f**d up is out." That's an interesting concept. And sometimes it's true. Unfortunately, it's not ALWAYS true, and that's why it's not printed in ANY rule book that I have.

Good Lord, I pity the program you work. The rule book does not cover every intricacy of the game. It says little things like "Only one player is entitled to occupy a base at any one time." I've never seen an order of tag rule, either. By the way, what is the penalty for a pitcher taking his signs off of the rubber? That's no listed either. But it does say that on a base hit, with bases loaded, all runners must advance at least one base. They cannot stay where they are and cause a traffic jam. That's what happened here and the two outs will be the same, no matter who gets tagged. If you don't believe me, forward this email to MLB or Gerry Davis and have him laugh at you.

[akalsey]

Since I started all the "order of the tag crap" by stating that I teach my kids to tag both runners, I'll re-iterate. For the perspective of outcome of the game, it doesn't matter. If you have two runners on 2B and tag them both, one is out, one is safe, no matter which order you tag them in, how many outs, or what phase the moon is in. Gee said it could matter with less than two outs, but I can't figure out how.

From the perspective of an umpire wanting to send the right guy back to the bench, it does matter.

Atl Blue, you have a lengthy argument full of examples, but your logic is wrong. Your basic premise is that R2, who has legally obtained 3B could be tagged out if the force is removed. You provided no examples to back that up. Not one of your examples has a runner being tagged out while standing on a base to which they were forced.

If R1 had not yet made it to 3B and was tagged by F6 in the basepath, followed by F5 tagging both runners on 3B, would R2 be out? The force was removed when R1 was tagged out, so under your logic, R2 is in jeopardy.

If a runner legally obtains a base, he can't be put out while touching it (except by interference). A runner does not lose the right to a base by another runner being put out. He may gain the right to the base when someone is put out (if a force is removed), but he doesn't ever lose it.

[Edited by akalsey on Jul 15th, 2004 at 10:37 PM]

[WindyCityBlue]

I tried logic...it doesn't seem to work.

[umpduck11]

In the original sitch,have the ball thrown to second for the force out,effectively ending any discussion of
who is out,and who is safe.........

[WindyCityBlue]

So, where you umpire, you can tell the player, "Wait, throw the ball to second.", when his coach is yelling for him to tag all three guys?

Cool, how do we get games there?

[mcrowder]

Windy, I think it's possible that the order may matter in some circumstance I can't wrap my brain around. Here's one that comes to mind, in the scenario you guys are discussing - 3 runners on third base.

If R3 is tagged first, he's out. I think we all agree there.

But if that happens, R2 is no longer forced to third base. So at that moment, R3 is out, and R2 is the offending baserunner - thus a tag on both runners would, by rule, cause you to call R2 out, not R1 ... even though R1 was really the screwup on this play.

If this is wrong, quote me a rule that shows me how I'm wrong.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Windy, I think it's possible that the order may matter in some circumstance I can't wrap my brain around. Here's one that comes to mind, in the scenario you guys are discussing - 3 runners on third base.

If R3 is tagged first, he's out. I think we all agree there.

But if that happens, R2 is no longer forced to third base. So at that moment, R3 is out, and R2 is the offending baserunner - thus a tag on both runners would, by rule, cause you to call R2 out, not R1 ... even though R1 was really the screwup on this play.

If this is wrong, quote me a rule that shows me how I'm wrong.

What??? The runner on third is the biggest screw up and caused all of this because he didn't advance!

You have a base hit with all bases occupied. How is it that all runners have to move up one base? The runner on third is out for not advancing, whether he is tagged, first, next or last. The runner from first has overrun his established base, is not entitled to be there and he is out, no matter when he is tagged. The only player that can be tagged and WILL ALWAYS BE SAFE IS R2, now R3.

[akalsey]

I think I understand the point they are making. Bases loaded, none out. Ball hit to F3. Runners go, but F3 steps on first before throwing home. BR is out, force is removed, F2 is waiting to apply a tag to R3. R3 notices this and scrambles back to 3B. R2 didn't see the tag at first so doesn't know the force is off and comes into third. R1 is a pitcher and doesn't know how to run the bases, so he comes charging around and only stops when he collides with the pile-up on third.

Who has the right to the base? There was no force, so R1 and R2 are in the wrong spot.

But this doesn't change the basic argument. No matter what order I tag the three runners in, the same two are out. In this case R3 is safe with R1, R2 out.

[Atl Blue]

akalsey:

In your scenario, you are correct, the order makes no difference because F3 has already stepped on first. This removed the force, so if R3 returns to 3B, it is his, and R2 and R1 are out if tagged.

You seem to understand the removed force concept. Windy, are you STILL not seeing it?

Windy keeps saying "R3 f*d up, he has to be out". He has yet to quote a rule that says R3 is out IF the force has been removed.

And that is the whole point to my extreme example. IF the force is removed because a trail runner is out for whatever reason, R3 IS NOT FORCED. Windy keeps saying R3 has to run and returned improperly, so he has to be out. Once a trail runner is out, R3 does NOT have to run, and is free to return to 3B, and because he is the lead runner, it belongs to him. So at that point, ANY other runner that was standing there has no right ot the base, including one who might have ORIGINALLY been forced there, but whose status changed when a trail runner was out, thereby removing the force.

Windy says he feels sorry for any league where I work (which must include the SEC and the ACC among others). This from someone whose only "rule" used on this play is "R3 f*d up, he has to be out". Windy, read the play: the status of R3 CHANGED. Once a trail runner (R1) is out, R3 is NOT forced, is free to return to HIS base, and anyone else standing there, including R2, is vulnerable.

I admit, this is never going to happen. It was an example that was used to show the ridiculousness of the statement about the "out of order crap" not meaning anything. It was merely a teaching tool, mental gymnastics. Unfortunately, Windy fell off the balance beam.

[Edited by Atl Blue on Jul 17th, 2004 at 07:16 AM]

[akalsey]

Of course, I stil disagree with you.

The difference between your original scenario and what I described is that there was a force involved in my sitch.

You describe R1 rounding second and coming to third. The moment he touched second baes, he legally acquired it. If he decides to advance to third, preceding runners are not forced to advance. R2 doesn't have to give up his place on third. R3 was already forced to move earlier in the play, so he's in the wrong spot. So R1 and R3 are out if all three are tagged on the base.

In order for R2 to be out, R1 would have to be tagged prior to reaching second, thus removing the force. Once he passes second, the force is off.

[Atl Blue]

alkasey:

You are right, once R1 passes 2B, the force is off him. Once R2 touches 3B, the force is off of him. Neither of them can be called out on a force. In my scenario, the ONLY person that could be called out on a force is R3, and that is ONLY if he is tagged PRIOR to R1 being tagged.

If all 3 runners end up on 3B, R1 cannot be called out on a force. However, because he is the trail runner, he is not entitled to 3B, so if tagged he is out, not on a force, but because he is not legally occupying a base. It's the same if he were tagged somewhere between 2B and 3B.

But once R1 is tagged out in my scenario, now NO ONE is forced, including R3. Because a trail runner is out, the force is removed. Since R3 is no longer forced, and since he is the lead runner, 3B belongs to him. He cannot be tagged out while standing on 3B.

Well, if 3B now belongs to R3, what is R2 doing there? He is a trail runner that is NOT forced to run that is in contact with a base with a lead runner. R2 has no protection, and if tagged now, he is out. This despite, as Windy likes to put it, R3 f*d up.

There a couple of concepts here:
1) once a trail runner is out (by any means), the force is removed on all lead runners
2) if more than one runner is in contact with the base, the base belongs to the lead runner unless he IS (not WAS) forced to leave it

Unfortunately, Windy's only concept is whoever f*d up is out. If that were the rule, in this case it would be Windy!

[akalsey]

Again...

Bases loaded, R3 doesn't move on the hit. R1 R2 both advance a base. There are now two runners on third and one on second. If R1 stepped off second and were tagged, would R2 be in jeopardy at third? No.

Bases loaded ball hit to the outfield. The batter decides not to stop at first but heads to second, do the other runners have to advance a base? No.

R1, R2. R2 makes it to third, but R1 was tagged out after rounding second, could R2 legally go back to second? No.

So why do all of the above common-sense concepts suddenly go out the window just because you have three people occupying a base at third?

You may disagree with Windy's statement that the person who screws up is out, but in baseball, that's most often the case. The only time when it's not is when doing that would give an advantage to the offense. (Runner passing another, batter interference at home, etc.).

Somebody else help out here. Am I nuts?

[DG]

The main problem here is that the original situation keeps changing. The only thing that remains the same is 3 runners on 3b. We have had a base hit to LF, a BR thrown out at 1B, and I don't know how many other situations. Let's all get over this by agreeing that if the defense tags all three runners 2 of them are out, and the umpire will determine which one will remain based on the situation, not 2 or 3 different situations posed here, but the one that actually exists. I hppe we can agree that order of tag does matter, depending on the situation, and that 2 runners will be out.