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windy says:
The runner on thrid will always be out for returning to the base he is no longer entitled to occupy.
OK, I'll buy that, as it's written. The problem with that reasoning though, is that some other things are about to happen that will mean that he IS entitled to return to the base. Hang on, we'll get there.
He must advance and has no right to cause another runner to be put out.
As long as he is forced, this is correct. Problem is (again), things can happen that remove the force. If so, he no longer HAS to advance.
As the thread stated, they are all standing on the same (3rd base). How can you call the runner from second out on a force, when he has legally advanced?
I'm not calling R2 out on a force. DEPENDING ON THE ORDER OF THE TAG however, I might be calling R2 out for being on a bag to which he is not entitled and being tagged.
What was the force, since he is standing on the bag?
I never called R2 out on a FORCE.
The bonehead from first is another casualty, since he is attempting to run his teammate off of a legally and safely secured base.
I agree completely. No matter what happens here, R1 is going to be out.
Let them tag each guy and then you explain what your theory is.
That's exactly what I would do, depending on the ORDER they were tagged. Now, I'll be the first to admit, it is going to have to be a very good and very quick thinking umpire to get this right, but I was willing to put you in that category before now.
I prefer to let the rules do the talking.
What rules? The only rule you have quoted is, "Whoever f**d up is out." That's an interesting concept. And sometimes it's true. Unfortunately, it's not ALWAYS true, and that's why it's not printed in ANY rule book that I have.
from tornado:
As soon as R2 is safe at 3rd, the force is removed.
Well, it's removed for R2, but it's not removed for R3. But I NEVER called R2 out on a force.
back to windy:
That's my point. The guys that f-d up are the runner who didn't vacate third
Originally, that's true. But things change. I'll get there, I promise.
and the runner from first that is trying to occupy a base that is already legally and safely occupied.
I agree completely regarding R1. He is dead meat. But he plays an important part in our little play here. Stick with me.
If our brother from Atl calls R2 (who has advanced to third) out for any reason other than he stepped off the base and was tagged, he is incorrect.
Sorry, that's just not true.
The other two are dead. No matter what order!
Again, simply not true.
OK, I promised to get you to the right answer here. Let's go back to the beginning. It seems to be the only way to get this through.
A runner that is forced from a base has no right to the previous base. I think we are all OK with that one.
Once a force is removed, a runner that might have previously been forced must be tagged to be out. Still OK, aren't we?
IF there is no force, and two runners are on the same base, the leading runner is entitled to the base, the trail runner has no rights to the base, and the trail runner is out if tagged, even if he is on the base.
A few cases to prove these points. R1, no outs, hot shot grounder to F3, R1 freezes on 1B. F3 comes over and ignores R1, and tags the base. Once F3 tagged 1B, the BR is out, and therefore the force is removed on R1. Had R1 been tagged before the base was tagged (while still forced), R1 would have been out, then F3 could have tagged the base for a DP. This is the first case of the "order of the tag crap" meaning something.
OK, let's move to the case of the reverse double play (yes, there is such a thing. See Rule 10 if a definition is needed). R1, ground ball to F3, but R1 was going this time. F3 steps on 1B (BR now out), and fires to F6 covering 2B. Is R1 forced, or must he be tagged? Well, of course he must be tagged, as the force was removed when F3 stepped on 1B. In fact, if R1 wants to reverse course and return to 1B, he is now free to do so.
Another concept: R2, no outs. Ground ball to F4, R2 off on contact. F4, instead of taking the easy play at 1B, decides to play on the lead runner, and throws to F5. R2 sees the throw and gets into an extended rundown between 2B and 3B. The BR, being a good runner, sees the rundown and trots into 2B. The defense chases R2 back to 2B, so now we have R2 and BR both standing on 2B. Both are tagged (in whatever order you want, in this case, the order makes no difference!). It is the BR that is out. R2 is the lead runner, he is not forced to leave 2B, it's his base.
OK, now for the graduate level stuff, we are going to combine these two concepts. Back to our original play, with all three runners standing on 3B. If the defense tags R2 first, nothing has happened, as R2 reached his "forced to" base, and 3B is his (at the moment). If R3 is tagged first, R3 is out; he was forced home on the play, and standing on 3B gives him no refuge.
But, (and it is a BIG but), if R1 is tagged first, he is out immediately; he has no reason to be on 3B, and has no safety there. But since R1 is out immediately, the force that was on before is now removed. A trail runner has been called out, so anyone in front of him is no longer forced to go anywhere. R3 does not have to run. Since he does not have to advance, he is the lead runner, and 3B belongs to him. Now, if both R2 and R3 are tagged (in whatever order you want, we're back to the order not meaning anything), R2 is out. He is the trail runner, on a base to which the lead runner is not forced to leave.
Well, guess what? R2 did everything he was supposed to do. It was his teammates that f*d up, but R2 is out!
So the "order of the tag crap" can matter. I will be the first to admit (and have shown), it doesn't ALWAYS matter, but there are times that it does. To make a blanket statement that it never does is simply wrong, as is the statement that R2 can never be out in this scenario.
If this does not convince you, I have failed as a teacher.
As for Luciano, that one is opinion, not rule, so I can't offer the same support as above. I do know that his evaluations were the lowest (or near lowest) in the league, primarily because he decided he was the show, that people were coming to see him umpire. While he obviously had some talent to get to the show, he let it get to his head, and he lost all credibility. The same players that may have voted him a great ump at one point, later hated his clown act, and voted him one of the worst umpires in the league. I couldn't care less about Earl Weaver, and I think he went overboard WAY too often, but Luciano's animosity and clownish behavior had no business on the baseball field.
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