You make the call

[Atl Blue]

DG:

You are correct, on the situation I posted, (three runners on 3B), two are out (I think we all agree on that). You are correct, the order of the tags DOES matter to determine WHICH two are out. THAT is the concept to which Windy refuses to agree.

alkalsey:

Bases loaded, R3 doesn't move on the hit. R1 R2 both advance a base. There are now two runners on third and one on second. If R1 stepped off second and were tagged, would R2 be in jeopardy at third? No.

Yes, he would! A trail runner was out, that removes the force on everyone. THAT is the point of this exercise.

Bases loaded ball hit to the outfield. The batter decides not to stop at first but heads to second, do the other runners have to advance a base? No.

They have to advance at least one. If not, where do they go? They do not have to advance past their "forced to" base, but they have to advance at least one base. That is what a force is all about.

R1, R2. R2 makes it to third, but R1 was tagged out after rounding second, could R2 legally go back to second? No.

YES! He absolutely can! The force has been removed, he can return to 2B!

So why do all of the above common-sense concepts suddenly go out the window just because you have three people occupying a base at third?

The above concepts went out the window LONG before we had three guys standing on third. Then went out when the concept of a force was misunderstood.

You may disagree with Windy's statement that the person who screws up is out, but in baseball, that's most often the case.

In MOST cases, it IS right, I agree with that. My point to this entire exercise is that it is not ALWAYS right, and he is an exception.

The only time when it's not is when doing that would give an advantage to the offense. (Runner passing another, batter interference at home, etc.).

Those are times, yes, but those are not the ONLY times.

Somebody else help out here. Am I nuts?

Well, I not going to answer that one, but I will say you have misunderstood the FORCE rule.

Read 7.08e. Read 2.00, Force. A force is removed against a runner when he reaches his advance base when forced. However, that does NOT remove the force that existed against any other runners.

EXAMPLE: Bases loaded, line drive toward F7, may or may not be caught. R1 thinks no, and takes off, R2 goes half way, R3 holds at 3B. Ball is not caught. R1 reaches 2B. The force is now removed on R1, but it remains for R2 and R3. They are still forced to their next bases.

Now, same situation, except F7 comes up throwing to 2B. R1 has rounded 2B, and a quick thinking F6 tags R1. He is out. R2 and R3 are NO LONGER forced. They must be tagged to be out.

Now, you want to get into the really interesting stuff? A force can be removed and reinstated against the same runner on the same play!

EXAMPLE: R1, fly ball to F9, R1 off on the pitch, ball is dropped by F9. R1 slides into 2B, removing the force. But he does not realize F9 has dropped the ball, so he returns to 1B thinking he has to tag up. Even though he reached 2B, removing the force, by retreating to 1B, he has REINSTATED the force on himself. If the defense throws the ball to 2B, he's out.

[akalsey]

Yes, please read 7.08e. In fact, here are the salient points to this arguement.

The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out.

And...

For instance, before two are out, and runners on first and second, or first, second and third, the ball is hit to an infielder who tries for the double play. The runner on first beats the throw to second base but overslides the base. The relay is made to first base and the batter runner is out. The first baseman, seeing the runner at second base off the bag, makes the return throw to second and the runner is tagged off the base. Meanwhile runners have crossed the plate. The question is: Is this a force play? Was the force removed when the batter runner was out at first base? Do the runs that crossed the plate during this play and before the third out was made when the runner was tagged at second, count? Answer: The runs score. It is not a force play. It is a tag play.

Once R1 rounded second and headed to third, the force is off and the actions of R1 are irrelevant when it comes to where R2 should be. R1 would have to retreat back past second toward first and reinstate the force in order for his out to matter.

[Atl Blue]

akalsey:

You are absolutely correct in that once a runner reaches an advance base when forced, the force is off ON HIM. It is not off on any other runners who have not yet reached their advance bases.

EXAMPLE: Bases loaded. BR hits a shot to deep F6. For some reason, R3 hesitated on the play. R1 was off on the pitch, and beats the throw to 2B. The force is now off of R1 (as long as he does not retreat). But R2 and R3 ARE still forced. Where else are they going to go? The BR went to first, R1 went to 2B. R2 and R3 are FORCED (by the action of the batter becoming a runner) to advance. If they (R2 or R3) or their advance base are tagged before they arrive, no matter where R1 is now, they are out.

Somehow, you seem to be thinking, or at least stating, that once ANY runner reaches his advance base, the force is off on ALL runners. That just isn't true.

If that is NOT what you are stating, then I don't see where you are still confused on the now famous 3 runners on 3B play. R1 is NOT forced once he reaches 2B. Great, no problem, no disagreement. However, he has no protection at 3B as he is the trail runner (if two runners are on a base, the base belongs to the lead runner unless he was forced to vacate it). OK, if tagged, he is out, no matter what, he has NO safety no matter who gets tagged first. Rule 7.03
Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

But if the defense tags him first, OK, R1 is out, not by force, but because of the above stated rule (7.03). Now, because R1 is out, there is no force on R3. Under rule 7.03, R3 is entitled to 3B because there is no longer a force. Now, if both are tagged (in either order), R2 is out (see rule 7.03, as R3 is not forced to vacate 3B).

C'mon guys, these are BASIC rules presented in a little bit of a confusing example. I can somewhat see an ump with little experience MAYBE missing it in the heat of the action, but with all day to study it, it doesn't get much more basic than 7.03 and 7.08e.

Of course, I still can't find a rule number for "whoever f*d up is out".

[Edited by Atl Blue on Jul 18th, 2004 at 09:55 PM]

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
You are absolutely correct in that >once a runner reaches an advance base when forced, the force is off ON HIM. It is not off on any other runners who have not yet reached their advance bases...

But if the defense tags him (R1) first, OK, R1 is out, not by force, but because of the above stated rule (7.03). Now, because R1 is out, there is no force on R3. Under rule 7.03, R3 is entitled to 3B because there is no longer a force. Now, if both are tagged (in either order), R2 is out (see rule 7.03, as R3 is not forced to vacate 3B).

C'mon guys, these are BASIC rules presented in a little bit of a confusing example. I can somewhat see an ump with little experience MAYBE missing it in the heat of the action, but with all day to study it, it doesn't get much more basic than 7.03 and 7.08e.

Of course, I still can't find a rule number for "whoever f*d up is out".

[Edited by Atl Blue on Jul 18th, 2004 at 09:55 PM]

You say that once R1 legally occupies second base he can not be forced to advance. But later you say that if R2 acquires third base, he can be "forced" to retreat if the force out is removed because R1 was put out. So R2 legally acquires third base. Then because R1 is out, the is no longer legally on the base?

If this situation ever comes up, just call R1 and R3 out. Who cares about what the order of the tags were? Everyone konws that only 1 runner can be on a base, therefore no one will complain when you call R1 and R3 out. Besides, I assume the third base coach will already have his hands full yelling at the runners, he will have no time to question your call.

[Atl Blue]

You say that once R1 legally occupies second base he can not be forced to advance.

Correct.

But later you say that if R2 acquires third base, he can be "forced" to retreat if the force out is removed because R1 was put out.

I don't like the term "forced" to retreat, because "forced" has a specific definition in baseball. But the actions of his teammate R3 legally returning to 3B will now "require" him to leave the base, yes.

So R2 legally acquires third base. Then because R1 is out, the is no longer legally on the base?

If you mean R2 in place of "the", then yes, that is exactly right.

If this situation ever comes up, just call R1 and R3 out.

I see you are part of the "order of the tags crap doesn't make a difference" camp, led by Windy. By the rules (7.03 and 7.08e), you would be incorrect.

Who cares about what the order of the tags were?

As I said earlier, this is a bizarre case play that would never happen. It was written to show how to deduce certain solutions from the rules. It was typical of a question you might see on a test. If this is your answer, you failed.

Everyone konws that only 1 runner can be on a base, therefore no one will complain when you call R1 and R3 out.

Actually, if I were the coach, I might, depending on the speed and ability of the specific runners, and if you got it wrong. And if you don't pay attention to the order of the tags, you MIGHT get it wrong.

Besides, I assume the third base coach will already have his hands full yelling at the runners,

You are totally correct about that!

he will have no time to question your call.

Funny, they always find time to do that. And many coaches will think this whole mess is somehow the ump's fault, too!

[Kaliix]

I don't believe there is any way that once a runner legally aquires a base, he can, by any actions of his teammates, be made to vacate it for any reason.

In your original play the BR legally aquires 1st, R1 legally aquires 2nd (although he is standing on 3rd) and R2 legally aquires 3rd. The only base that R3 can legally aquire is home. Since all runners legally aquired the base they were forced to (and the BR is on first) the force is removed on all runners except R3 who is still forced from 3rd.

Since 7.08(e) states that "However, if a following runner is put out on a FORCE PLAY, the force is removed and the runner must be put out.", R1 was not forced out on 3rd, he was tagged out, which by the rule, DOES NOT remove the force. And since R2 has still legally aquired 3rd, the force on R3 still exists and he has no right to 3rd both because R2 has legally aquired it and because the force still exists on him.

Therefore, the order of the tag does not matter. R2 legally aquired a base that he was forced to. R1 only legally aquired 2nd and since he was tagged out (not forced out as stated in 7.008(e)), R3 is still forced to vacate 3rd and the only base he can legally aquire is home, so he is out upon being tagged at 3rd.

[WindyCityBlue]

This is going to be one of those threads that just won't die. Let's agree that if we are in Atlanta, we will call it one way and almost everywhere else, we will call it the other? Stop the MADNESS!!!

[Kaliix]

You may be right, this thread may not die. But I have been reading it all along and have just now had a chance to respond to what I think the flaw is in Atl Blue's logic. I for one, would like to hear his response and attempts to rationalize the logic I used in aswering his hypothetical question.

And hey, no one is making you read the thread, right?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
This is going to be one of those threads that just won't die. Let's agree that if we are in Atlanta, we will call it one way and almost everywhere else, we will call it the other? Stop the MADNESS!!!

[gxc]

Kaliix,
Rule 7.08(e) states that if a following runner is "put out" on a force play; not "forced out" on a force play, so a following running being put out removes the force on the preceding runners.