Get it Right...MLB Judgement Call

[LDUB]

I don't know if this is true, but it is something that I have noticed.

In the Cubs game a few days back, there was a homerun call that was changed. The person who gave the signal that the call was being changed was the PU. He is the UIC of the game and he runs the game. The "head official" of the game is the one who announced that the call was changed.

In the NFL, instant replay is used to change calls. It is the referee who announces weather the call will be upheld or not. Once again, it is the "head official" who announces the change.

In the NCAA game that WCB described, he said that the non-calling official was the one who signaled that the call was being changed. Well mabye the official who made the original call was the umpire, and the one who signaled the change was the Referee. Once again, the "head official" signaled the change.

I don't know all of this is a just a coincidence, but if it is not, then it might settle the argument about WCB's NCAA situtaion.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by LDUB
I don't know if this is true, but it is something that I have noticed.

In the Cubs game a few days back, there was a homerun call that was changed. The person who gave the signal that the call was being changed was the PU. He is the UIC of the game and he runs the game. The "head official" of the game is the one who announced that the call was changed.

OK. No disagreement there.

Originally posted by LDUB
In the NFL, instant replay is used to change calls. It is the referee who announces weather the call will be upheld or not. Once again, it is the "head official" who announces the change..

Well the "Head Officials" is the Referee in football. The Referee is the person that tells everyone what the rulings are on the field. But that does not mean they make the decision. I am the Referee on my crew and all I do is report what my partner's do. I do not tell them to pick up their flags or change their calls. We all might discuss a play and a situation, but I surely have no authority to tell a partner to not call something or what they called was wrong. All I do is make sure we apply the rule properly after all is said and done. But we have a common saying in football. "If you do not know how to apply it, do not call it." It is not my job to fix partner's mistakes. I just have to understand what they called and when it happens. So I can explain the enforcement to captains and coaches if need be.

Originally posted by LDUB
In the NCAA game that WCB described, he said that the non-calling official was the one who signaled that the call was being changed. Well mabye the official who made the original call was the umpire, and the one who signaled the change was the Referee. Once again, the "head official" signaled the change..

Well if you listen to me, the Referee has not real special authority. All the Referee does is run the pregame meeting and throw up the jump ball and hand the ball off between halves or quarters if you are working a HS game. The Referee cannot change foul calls or tell partner's what they called is wrong. I have NEVER seen a foul called changed. If you blew that whistle, you live with it. I have NEVER SEEN a travel call changed. If you call it, you live with it. No matter how erroneous the call is. I might help an officials know if a basket went in during a foul, but the calling officials has to decide if the basket counted. They know what they call, not the just the Referee.

Originally posted by LDUB
I don't know all of this is a just a coincidence, but if it is not, then it might settle the argument about WCB's NCAA situtaion.

It does not.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally posted by LDUB
In the NFL, instant replay is used to change calls. It is the referee who announces weather the call will be upheld or not. Once again, it is the "head official" who announces the change..

Originally posted by JRutledge
Well the "Head Officials" is the Referee in football. The Referee is the person that tells everyone what the rulings are on the field. But that does not mean they make the decision. I am the Referee on my crew and all I do is report what my partner's do. I do not tell them to pick up their flags or change their calls. We all might discuss a play and a situation, but I surely have no authority to tell a partner to not call something or what they called was wrong. All I do is make sure we apply the rule properly after all is said and done. But we have a common saying in football. "If you do not know how to apply it, do not call it." It is not my job to fix partner's mistakes. I just have to understand what they called and when it happens. So I can explain the enforcement to captains and coaches if need be.

That is exactly my point. It is the head official who announces things to everyone. I'm not saying that you are telling them to change their calls. But in the NFL it is different. It is the Referee who goes to the replay booth and reviews the play. He is the one who makes the call on if the play should be overturned.

Originally posted by LDUB
In the NCAA game that WCB described, he said that the non-calling official was the one who signaled that the call was being changed. Well mabye the official who made the original call was the umpire, and the one who signaled the change was the Referee. Once again, the "head official" signaled the change..

Originally posted by JRutledge

Well if you listen to me, the Referee has not real special authority. All the Referee does is run the pregame meeting and throw up the jump ball and hand the ball off between halves or quarters if you are working a HS game. The Referee cannot change foul calls or tell partner's what they called is wrong. I have NEVER seen a foul called changed. If you blew that whistle, you live with it. I have NEVER SEEN a travel call changed. If you call it, you live with it. No matter how erroneous the call is. I might help an officials know if a basket went in during a foul, but the calling officials has to decide if the basket counted. They know what they call, not the just the Referee.

I am not saying that the Referee is changing calls. All I said is that he is making a signal. I don't understand how WCB has any arguement at all unless he was able to hear what was said in the coversation between the two officials. Just because one of them made the signal does not mean he ran up saying you are wrong, and pointed the other way.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by LDUB

That is exactly my point. It is the head official who announces things to everyone. I'm not saying that you are telling them to change their calls. But in the NFL it is different. It is the Referee who goes to the replay booth and reviews the play. He is the one who makes the call on if the play should be overturned.

Actually, the Referee makes the decision with the consultation of a former official in the booth. That is what their headset is for.

Originally posted by LDUB

I am not saying that the Referee is changing calls. All I said is that he is making a signal. I don't understand how WCB has any arguement at all unless he was able to hear what was said in the coversation between the two officials. Just because one of them made the signal does not mean he ran up saying you are wrong, and pointed the other way.

What I am saying to you is. Who the Referee is or who is not the Referee has nothing to do with that procedure. The two Umpires could have been involved in the play and the Referee would not signal anything. I do not see the play in question, but I know the procedure. Who is the Referee has nothing to do with that procedure. Only the two officials that are involved are going to be signaling anything.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by LDUB

In the NCAA game that WCB described, he said that the non-calling official was the one who signaled that the call was being changed. Well mabye the official who made the original call was the umpire, and the one who signaled the change was the Referee. Once again, the "head official" signaled the change.

I don't know all of this is a just a coincidence, but if it is not, then it might settle the argument about WCB's NCAA situtaion.

WCB has said a lot of things in this thread and the last thread that were nothing but guesses and maybes. Well, guesses and maybes can never supersede a rule. That's why WCB is wrong. The rule that I cited already also has other sections that take care of the argument above:

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-4- "One official may ASSIST another by providing additional information related to a MADE decision".

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-5- "The referee's decision shall NOT take precedence over that of the umpire(s) in calling a foul or violation"..

The referee is always the crew chief, or head official. An out-of-bounds call is a violation. Put the rules above together with the one that I already cited and you get the procedure that HAS to be followed and WAS followed:--i.e.- An official makes an out-of-bounds call. Another official comes in to provide additional information on that call. The official that made the call then may or may not change that call, dependant on what he- AND HE ONLY- wants to do. No other official, including the referee, has the right to overrule that calling official, or make that calling official change his original call. Whether the calling official or another official gave the final signal or not has got absolutely nothing to do with the procedures outlined in the rules cited. It doesn't matter because the rules have already been laid down as to the procedure that must be followed to reach that final decision.

The RULES say that one official can NEVER OVERRULE another official. That's not me saying that, or Rut saying that. It's THE RULES that are saying that!!!!!! It's that simple, whether WCB wants to believe those written NCAA rules or not. To be quite honest, for someone- anyone- to argue their own personal suppositions over plainly written rules is ludicrous.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 6th, 2004 at 04:48 AM]

[WindyCityBlue]

[i]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee [/B]

WCB has said a lot of things in this thread and the last thread that were nothing but guesses and maybes. Well, guesses and maybes can never supersede a rule. That's why WCB is wrong. The rule that I cited already also has other sections that take care of the argument above:

I guess that maybe you can't read. You never saw the play, I did. EXACTLY what I wrote happened. Live with it, a play happened (at least once) that you can't explain, with your vast NCAA experience and all.

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-4- "One official may ASSIST another by providing additional information related to a MADE decision".

I'm sure he did, in the locker room, after the game. They made eye contact and the other ref immediately signalled to the other ref that the ball should go the other way. Then he signalled to the rest what the call is. The other ref never said a word or made a signal.

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-5- "The referee's decision shall NOT take precedence over that of the umpire(s) in calling a foul or violation"..

No foul...just an out of bounds call. Hmmm, I thought that was clear. Maybe, I wasn't clear and you had to guess what play I was describing.

The RULES say that one official can NEVER OVERRULE another official. That's not me saying that, or Rut saying that. It's THE RULES that are saying that!!!!!! It's that simple, whether WCB wants to believe those written NCAA rules or not. To be quite honest, for someone- anyone- to argue their own personal suppositions over plainly written rules is ludicrous.

Yeah, how many resin bags have you provided to a baseball game? Yet, there it is in the rule book. Oh, I guess that we are only talking about the rules that you want. Sorry, I thought that when you make a statement, you could, maybe, back it up. Rules and laws are very grey areas, they get twisted and aberrations happen all of the time. Not that you'd notice, since according to you, if it is not in the book, it can't happen.

BTW how much D1 basketball experience do you have. That is very easy to verify.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 6th, 2004 at 04:48 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

[/B]

So you are telling me, that this entire discussion is based on whether or not someone worked D1 basketball? So it is impossible to comment on D1 Basketball, because we have not done it?

This is just another example of you lack of knowledge of basketball rules and procedures.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

[i]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
NCAA basketball rule 2-2-4- "One official may ASSIST another by providing additional information related to a MADE decision".

I'm sure he did, in the locker room, after the game. They made eye contact and the other ref immediately signalled to the other ref that the ball should go the other way. Then he signalled to the rest what the call is. The other ref never said a word or made a signal.

Gee, is that right Windy? They made eye contact only and the other ref never said a word? Instead of trying to argue the inarguable, maybe you should spend some of your time trying to find the person who made the following posts in your name- Windy City Blue. That person is really making you look bad, Windy. He completely contradicted your statement above:
1)Posted by Windy City Blue at 2:44pm on June 30th- "When one official makes a bad call and another official CONFERS with him(MAYBE IT JUST TAKES THREE SECONDS, MAYBE LONGER) to contradict the call, and it is changed. It has been OVERRULED. A ruling was made and it was turned over. OVERRULED."
2) Posted by Windy City Blue at 10:06am on June 30th- "The crowd went crazy and one of the other officials hustled in AND MUST HAVE CONVINCED HIM that it was deflected- the correct call"
3) Posted by Windy City Blue at 4:13pm on June 30th- "One of the referees ran over, THEY CONFERRED FOR ABOUT 10 SECONDS and the referee WHO CAME IN WITH THE HELP signalled the other way".

Here's the link again, Windy. Check your OWN words out.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...3&pagenumber=1

Again, note that YOU plainly posted above that the call was OVERRULED. Well, NCAA rules won't allow that. Feel free to keep arguing differently though. How many different ways can you say the same thing- that the NCAA rules are wrong and Windy City Blue is right?

ByeBye credibility, Windy!

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by insatty
The CCA Manual lists seven situations in which an umpire may offer unsolicited information to another umpire that made an incorrect call. One of those seven is a fair-foul call on a homerun ball.

What is the CCA manual and where can I get it? Specifically the 7 situations. It sounds like this would be a good training tool to teach younger officials with.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I am the Referee on my crew and all I do is report what my partner's do. I do not tell them to pick up their flags or change their calls. We all might discuss a play and a situation, but I surely have no authority to tell a partner to not call something or what they called was wrong. All I do is make sure we apply the rule properly after all is said and done. But we have a common saying in football. "If you do not know how to apply it, do not call it." It is not my job to fix partner's mistakes. I just have to understand what they called and when it happens. So I can explain the enforcement to captains and coaches if need be.

You must have the luxury of working with top notch football officials that don't make mistakes. In my area we don't have this. "White Hats" pick up rookies and train them to "standard". What ends up happening is that after a foul, when the crew is discussing, that sometimes calls are overturned. 2 reasons to overturn a call in our association: 1)the calling official "thought he saw" - if you "thought" you saw it, you didn't see it. 2) another official had a better view of the foul. I have primarily seen this type of call with a block in the back or a pass interference. The philosophy behind this mechanic is GET THE CALL RIGHT, even if you have to wave off a flag.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

What is the CCA manual and where can I get it? Specifically the 7 situations. It sounds like this would be a good training tool to teach younger officials with.

Not being a baseball umpire, I was waiting for someone else to answer this. However, here goes:


Available at:
http://www.gerrydavis.com
And probably many other sources too. These manuals are available for most NCAA sports.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by jumpmaster


You must have the luxury of working with top notch football officials that don't make mistakes. In my area we don't have this. "White Hats" pick up rookies and train them to "standard". What ends up happening is that after a foul, when the crew is discussing, that sometimes calls are overturned. 2 reasons to overturn a call in our association: 1)the calling official "thought he saw" - if you "thought" you saw it, you didn't see it. 2) another official had a better view of the foul. I have primarily seen this type of call with a block in the back or a pass interference. The philosophy behind this mechanic is GET THE CALL RIGHT, even if you have to wave off a flag.

I disagree. And my disagreement has nothing to do with how good the officials I work with. We have a policy on our crew to not question judgment calls, especially based on what we "think" happen. If any information is going to be given, you BETTER KNOW WHAT HAPPEN! You better know the ball was tipped. You better know the ball was loose. You better know we are applying this penalty wrong. Not a guess, ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE. Same goes for any sport I have worked.

Peace

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I disagree. And my disagreement has nothing to do with how good the officials I work with. We have a policy on our crew to not question judgment calls, especially based on what we "think" happen. If any information is going to be given, you BETTER KNOW WHAT HAPPEN! You better know the ball was tipped. You better know the ball was loose. You better know we are applying this penalty wrong. Not a guess, ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE. Same goes for any sport I have worked.

Peace [/B]

So we are in agreement on case #1 - if you aren't sure it happened it didn't happen. This mistake is directly related to the experience of the official.

How would you handle this? Official #1 rules that basketball is tipped out of bounds by white. Official #2 who had a different angle, comes in and states that he is absolutely positive that blue tipped the ball last.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by jumpmaster


How would you handle this? Official #1 rules that basketball is tipped out of bounds by white. Official #2 who had a different angle, comes in and states that he is absolutely positive that blue tipped the ball last.

Then we are going to change the call. And this situation is discussed in every single pregame I have. But, that is not being overruled. That is being given information to help me make the proper call. But if I was all over the play as Official #1 and I saw the play, I am sticking with my original call. Because #2 has different angle, does not mean he had a better angle or a better look at how the ball got out of bounds.

Being overruled means that one official saw something and makes a call regardless of what the original officials saw or what their coverage area is as well. That is not OVERRULING another official. That is helping an official. The calling officials can reject that information if they choose to. A Supreme Court Judge can overrule a decision that is made by an Appellate Court Judge's decision. Officials cannot just make a decision without the approval of the calling official. So I really do not see how someone is being overruled when calling officials can stick with their own call. If a BU Umpire feels he made the right call, no one can make him change it. The same in all sports I work. Again, if you do not believe me, ask this very question on the Basketball Board and use the language of OVERRULE and see what reaction you will get.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Crew chiefs in D1 and Minor League baseball carry a little more authority. I have had calls changed and I've changed calls as crew chief - all of them have been after conferring with my partners, because baseball allows this. A couple of times I have had to prevent fights from breaking out in our locker room after the game, but on the field, we did our jobs. Sometimes our "conferences" were a signal - ala pulled foot, bobbled ball, "Safe" for no catch, double set for a balk, etc. I've worked with some of my partners for fourteen years and often don't need words to show what we want or will do. Work with a crew long enough and this happens. I do not suggest it to rookies or inexperienced crews. But does it happen, you bet. Did you ever see Joe Brinkman call a check swing without taking his hands out of his pockets? He did it in a playoff game two years ago.

Tensions are obviously high about this issue.
Jeff, in order to end this, I will agree that changing/overruling/altering a baseball call/ruling is a difficult decision and should be done only when warranted and then, properly. My intent was to show that the steps taken by our professional brethren is for the good of the game. We owe it to the players, coaches & fans to make sure that the game is called fairly and correctly. Adopting this practice ON THE BASEBALL FIELD is sure to come. FED already said that they want any incorrect call that is made that puts a team in jeopardy should be corrected. Then they come back and say that even if you call a fair ball "Foul", it is foul. We know that they did this to protect a call made in error, that would be difficult to change.

Jurassic,
You didn't have to tell us that you weren't a baseball umpire..it was obvious. The only mistake I made was trying to convince you that when you say something can't possibly happen, someone is going to give you a REAL example of it occuring. I did, you can't believe it...oh, well. Working at the D1 level in any sport is an accomplishment. You complained about me posting my credentials to back an opinion, sorry, but jealousy becomes you. I had no intent to make enemies of you when this first began, but you broke the cardinal rule of officiating. "Don't take anything personally." You did, I gloated and you've been sneering ever since. You'd better be careful or your face will stay that way. Uh, oh...too late.