Get it Right...MLB Judgement Call

[insatty]

The CCA Manual lists seven situations in which an umpire may offer unsolicited information to another umpire that made an incorrect call. One of those seven is a fair-foul call on a homerun ball.

I am uncertain whether the professional umpires follow the same mechanics in those seven situations. But I'll never work pro ball. I do, however, work NCAA ball, which causes me to follow the NCAA seven-situation mechanic at any level. So my advice is: offer your unsolicited information in those seven situations and let the calling umpire decide whether to correct his call or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Okay, I'm going to end this once and for all...
Jurassic, Rut, you guys hold onto whatever you can regarding this issue. When the discussion firest began it concerned one official coming to another and telling him that he judged or ruled the call incorrectly. I used the term overrule - you say corrected and changed. Get over it...neither of you has ever worked as an official at the professional level. In Minor League baseball we have a crew chief who CAN and WILL overrule a call made by a member of that crew. I have been in both positions. I provided examples of calls that should be changed. I also gave you reasons why this should happen. Rut came back that no other sport allows this. I said that I saw it happen in basketball. Jurassic said, nope can't happen. I gave the exact play. You then said that I didn't hear the exchange. Doesn't matter...you didn't either. Then, you say that the calling official corrected the call, but again, I told you of the example where it didn't. You counter with, well it might have happened, but the crew shouldn't have. Good God, when have either of you worked the NCAA tournament? You gave an opinion, I countered it with a real world example, you dismiss it and then say I'm wrong. Don't quote a rule and twist semantics. The call was blown and the other ref made the reversal. The calling ref was never involved in changing the call. He ran up court when the other ref signalled the ball the other way. The could have punched each otherout after the game...I don't care...the call happened contrary to your belief.

By the way, find the section in the Official Rules of Major League baseball that allow for the crew to get together and change a judgement call.

Good night ladies.

Again, that's nothing but a complete and utter load of crap, Windy. You're 100% wrong- still. I didn't give an opinion at all, Windy. I cited the exact NCAA basketball rule that proved that the call couldn't have happened the way that YOUR opinion wanted it to. The RULE says that YOUR opinion is WRONG. Get over it. They say that it takes a big man to admit it when they're wrong. Do the math.

Bye-bye credibility, Windy.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Good God, when have either of you worked the NCAA tournament? You gave an opinion, I countered it with a real world example, you dismiss it and then say I'm wrong. Don't quote a rule and twist semantics. The call was blown and the other ref made the reversal. The calling ref was never involved in changing the call. He ran up court when the other ref signalled the ball the other way. The could have punched each otherout after the game...I don't care...the call happened contrary to your belief.

You are right; I have not ever worked a single NCAA Tournament game at any level. I just attended a camp where D1 Officials runs the camp and worked a National Championship game in 1999, and he never once suggested doing what you "claim" you saw. But the last time I checked, you do not work basketball. But you keep referencing this play in the NCAA Tournament. We have guys that live right in our back yard, you could ask them. You do not have to take my word for it. You can ask guys that work D1 basketball and they will tell you for themselves what happen

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
By the way, find the section in the Official Rules of Major League baseball that allow for the crew to get together and change a judgement call.

Well, when I work a Major League baseball game, I will worry about those procedures. As a football and basketball official, we do not do many things the NFL or NBA teaches. As a matter of fact, we are told to not use them as an example at all. But you probably know that better than I would.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Good night ladies.

Never once in this discussion did I try to belittle you. I stuck to the facts and my side of the discussion. I can see that you have shown once again you lack class. Maybe this is why people feel the way they do about your organization. You sure are representing those guys really well with comments like that.

Peace

[DG]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Only certain NFL calls can be changed. You cannot change a fumble that was ruled down by contact. You cannot change penalty calls or even review them. There are many other situations that cannot be reviewed.

Peace

Only certain NFL calls can be changed, that is correct. The ones that can be corrected are the ones "when video is used".

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DG
Only certain NFL calls can be changed, that is correct. The ones that can be corrected are the ones "when video is used".

I know that. But there are so many plays that cannot ever be reviewed. Just like in either basketball or baseball, you cannot even give help or information so that anything can be changed.

I have never seen a ball or strike changed in baseball at any level.

You will never holding call made by one official, then the other official comes in and tells the calling officials he did not see it properly. Not without being fined or fired. I guess it could happen, but following improper procedure has been punished before in the NFL and the NBA.

Peace

[oatmealqueen]

This topic was pretty much talked out in an earlier post until Windy brought it up again just to needle a few posters.
Not what this forum is for.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Good night ladies.

Quite offensive IMO.
And BTW, Rut and JR are correct.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted June 30th by JurassicRef

Wow, you missed the point, WCB. DG was alluding to basketball officials over ruling each other. Well, that don't happen. Ever!

Except in the 2004 NCAA Tourney, at least once!

The official above changed his OWN call after listening to the information that was offered to him by another official.

No he didn't...watch the play, I have that game on tape, since the brother of a friend is on the team. The referree who made the OOB call(listen now) DID NOT CORRECT HIS CALL, one of his partners looked at him, indicated a touch by the other team and signalled the other way. The other referee NEVER DID A THING, except run up the side of the court to follow the inbounds.

That happens all the time. He was NOT over ruled by another official.

Okay, he telepathically convinced him that the play was incorrect. Then, he signalled the correct call and told his partner to remain quiet.

You can NEVER over rule another official in basketball- plain and simple. There's a very simple theory behind the explicit rule that I detailed in my first post. The basketball rulesmakers don't want their officials to try and assert their OWN judgement over another official's judgement.

Okay, so when the buzzer goes off and one official signals no shot, why do they huddle at the TV to see how much time is acually left? Just to see how good they look? OR...could it be that they recognize that JUST LIKE BASEBALL, HOCKEY, TENNIS and FOOTBALL, professional officials can make mistakes and they will provide them with the remedy for fixing them? Hmmm

I have never said that every call can and should be scrutinized and if wrong, corrected. I have never said that one official should usurp the other's authority and impose his will. You have put words in my mouth, but didn't like it when I reciprocated. Your difficulty with this is the word NEVER. Wake up...it happened. Other sports are evolving and allowing officials to rectify improper judgements. How long before the rule books are altered? Rut said that he didn't care what the Official rules state because he won't work MLB, but a whole lot of baseball is governed by those same rules. I also recognize that when the pros are doing something that has a positive effect on the game, I should adopt that mindset. My ego does not prevent me from adopting better techniqus that may seem foreign. It also doesn't allow me to hide behind arcane rules and semantics. I have given two exact plays that challenged the theroies presented for discussion. Both are real and not subject to dismissal. The two JR's (Rut and 'rassic) have never wworked any of their sports at a D1 level or beyond. Yet they are a fountain of knowledge about how we should conduct ourselves. I will take solace in the fact that when our Minor League Director of Umpiring calls on us to live up to those standards, we can say we are aware and already are.

[WindyCityBlue]

Did you really post this and then come to my post and start in again...

I know I have been in some battles over the years. Some I started others just happen without much participation on my part at all. I think we need to refrain from the constant bickering and constant name calling. We are here to learn from each other in one way or another. Some of us have great experience at the top levels. Others are just getting started. I think those of us that have been around a lot longer, need to be more mindful of those that do not know any better yet.

If that is how you truly feel, as someone who tries to teach those with less experience, lesson 1 begins now...

Don't ever put things in writing that can be used against you later. My post pointed out a play that ha a direct correlation to a discussion here. You started in with the derogatory remarks. Who's the hypocrite?

[DG]

I alluded, because it certainly appears to the viewer (television and in person), that it happens in NCAA. I will take your word for it, that it never happens, and wonder what the heck I have been seeing. Obviously, some telephathic communication going on between officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Originally posted June 30th by JurassicRef

Wow, you missed the point, WCB. DG was alluding to basketball officials over ruling each other. Well, that don't happen. Ever!

Except in the 2004 NCAA Tourney, at least once!

The official above changed his OWN call after listening to the information that was offered to him by another official.

No he didn't...watch the play, I have that game on tape, since the brother of a friend is on the team. The referree who made the OOB call(listen now) DID NOT CORRECT HIS CALL, one of his partners looked at him, indicated a touch by the other team and signalled the other way. The other referee NEVER DID A THING, except run up the side of the court to follow the inbounds.

That happens all the time. He was NOT over ruled by another official.

Okay, he telepathically convinced him that the play was incorrect. Then, he signalled the correct call and told his partner to remain quiet.

You can NEVER over rule another official in basketball- plain and simple. There's a very simple theory behind the explicit rule that I detailed in my first post. The basketball rulesmakers don't want their officials to try and assert their OWN judgement over another official's judgement.

Okay, so when the buzzer goes off and one official signals no shot, why do they huddle at the TV to see how much time is acually left? Just to see how good they look? OR...could it be that they recognize that JUST LIKE BASEBALL, HOCKEY, TENNIS and FOOTBALL, professional officials can make mistakes and they will provide them with the remedy for fixing them? Hmmm

I have never said that every call can and should be scrutinized and if wrong, corrected. I have never said that one official should usurp the other's authority and impose his will. You have put words in my mouth, but didn't like it when I reciprocated. Your difficulty with this is the word NEVER. Wake up...it happened. Other sports are evolving and allowing officials to rectify improper judgements. How long before the rule books are altered? Rut said that he didn't care what the Official rules state because he won't work MLB, but a whole lot of baseball is governed by those same rules. I also recognize that when the pros are doing something that has a positive effect on the game, I should adopt that mindset. My ego does not prevent me from adopting better techniqus that may seem foreign. It also doesn't allow me to hide behind arcane rules and semantics. I have given two exact plays that challenged the theroies presented for discussion. Both are real and not subject to dismissal. The two JR's (Rut and 'rassic) have never wworked any of their sports at a D1 level or beyond. Yet they are a fountain of knowledge about how we should conduct ourselves. I will take solace in the fact that when our Minor League Director of Umpiring calls on us to live up to those standards, we can say we are aware and already are.

Windy, you can post your same crap for the next 3 months if you want. After every one of your posts, I am still just gonna tell you the same thing again. You are wrong! There is a very specific basketball rule, cited several times already, that proves that you are wrong! You do not have anything that will back up any of your allegations, and you NEVER will have anything. You have ZERO credibility on this issue. Quite frankly, I have my doubts that you really possess the umpiring credentials that you are trying to claim too. I don't think that any official who was supposedly working at that level would ever act as unprofessionally as you have been doing, or would lack the common sense to even stop for a second and try to understand a simple rule citation from another sport. Feel free to continue with the name-calling and putdowns though. I must admit that you are quite proficient in those areas.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Did you really post this and then come to my post and start in again...

I know I have been in some battles over the years. Some I started others just happen without much participation on my part at all. I think we need to refrain from the constant bickering and constant name calling. We are here to learn from each other in one way or another. Some of us have great experience at the top levels. Others are just getting started. I think those of us that have been around a lot longer, need to be more mindful of those that do not know any better yet.

If that is how you truly feel, as someone who tries to teach those with less experience, lesson 1 begins now...

Don't ever put things in writing that can be used against you later. My post pointed out a play that ha a direct correlation to a discussion here. You started in with the derogatory remarks. Who's the hypocrite?

Rut's a hypocrite? Rut started in with the derogatory remarks? Hmmmmmmm!

Rut posted the above on July 4th at 3:17am. Please take a look at the contents of the thread that I linked below, Windy:

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...3&pagenumber=1

Your first flame directed at Rut was contained in your post on June 28th at 10:25pm. Many more flames directed by you at Rut followed after that- all before July 4th. Do you want me to take the time to dig them all out for you? On June 30th, your post at 5:13pm directed at myself called me an "a$$" and referred to me as "feable(sic) minded".

And you're trying to claim that Rut started the derogatory remarks? That's kinda laughable to anyone that can read and think, Windy.

ByeBye, credibility- again! You just keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

[JRutledge]

I am not going to address the personal stuff.

If you do not believe me, ask this question at the Basketball Board. If you do not think what JR or I are saying, ask other officials that know. You will not find a bunch of D1 Tournament Officials, but you will find officials that have worked many different levels. But I did not realize I need to be a D1 Official to intelligently know about procedures that are used. I have actually attended NCAA Meetings that have been held by the NCAA and listened to the Official Directors talk about plays and situations we face. I am sorry that this year will only be my 9th year, but I have worked a few years of NCAA Basketball as well and read the very same book that everyone can reference. But also remember, you have not worked a Major League game, but I am not questioning your position based on your lack of MLB experience.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DG
I alluded, because it certainly appears to the viewer (television and in person), that it happens in NCAA. I will take your word for it, that it never happens, and wonder what the heck I have been seeing. Obviously, some telephathic communication going on between officials.

I think you are missing the point. I understand what things might look like. If you listen to the commentators, that is your first mistake. But all an official can do is give information. Then based on that information, the calling officials can change that call or just go with what they saw. And on an out of bounds call, it is very common for that to happen. That is not overruling, that is giving information. As a matter of fact, the "helping" official cannot signal or change the call in any way. If the "calling" official needs help, they might make eye contact and not signal anything. Then the "helping" official will make a signal to let them know which way the ball will go, then the calling officials usually blows their whistle and signals they proper direction.

This is a very common practice (speaking of the mechanic). But it is also very rare happening. I might go an entire season and not have one of these type of plays changed.

I am not saying that officials do not use improper mechanics or procedures, but they can and will get fined or suspended (possibly fired) if they use the wrong procedure. Every D1 NCAA game is reviewed by tape and has every call evaluated. If there was an improper procedure used, the officials would likely not advance in the NCAA Tournament in which this play described took place. There was a double T given out in a Texas game in the NCAA Tournament. The very well known official did not use a commonly used procedure and gave both Ts to Coach Rick Barnes, and the officials that gave both Ts did not work again in this yearÂ’s tournament after the incident.

So maybe it happen just like you said it did, but tells me what games those officials worked after that play?

Peace

[DG]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I think you are missing the point. I understand what things might look like. If you listen to the commentators, that is your first mistake. But all an official can do is give information. Then based on that information, the calling officials can change that call or just go with what they saw. And on an out of bounds call, it is very common for that to happen. That is not overruling, that is giving information. As a matter of fact, the "helping" official cannot signal or change the call in any way. If the "calling" official needs help, they might make eye contact and not signal anything. Then the "helping" official will make a signal to let them know which way the ball will go, then the calling officials usually blows their whistle and signals they proper direction.

This is a very common practice (speaking of the mechanic). But it is also very rare happening. I might go an entire season and not have one of these type of plays changed.

I am not saying that officials do not use improper mechanics or procedures, but they can and will get fined or suspended (possibly fired) if they use the wrong procedure. Every D1 NCAA game is reviewed by tape and has every call evaluated. If there was an improper procedure used, the officials would likely not advance in the NCAA Tournament in which this play described took place. There was a double T given out in a Texas game in the NCAA Tournament. The very well known official did not use a commonly used procedure and gave both Ts to Coach Rick Barnes, and the officials that gave both Ts did not work again in this yearÂ’s tournament after the incident.

So maybe it happen just like you said it did, but tells me what games those officials worked after that play?

Peace

I don't know what point I am missing. You, and others, are telling me that something I see is not happening. Like I said, I will take your word that some telephathic/eye contact thing is going on that I can not see as a spectator. And I have no information on what happens when a screwup occurs. I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DG
I don't know what point I am missing. You, and others, are telling me that something I see is not happening. Like I said, I will take your word that some telephathic/eye contact thing is going on that I can not see as a spectator. And I have no information on what happens when a screwup occurs. I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em.

I am not telling you anything you saw. All I am doing is explaining what you saw and what I have experienced. Any official that has worked basketball more than a year knows this. But I also find it interesting that you have not told us the conversation that was had to tell us exactly what was said between officials and the procedures that are commonly practiced.

Ask this question on the Basketball Boards. Do not at all take my word for it. Tell all the other experienced officials over there what they do not know. I will stay completely out of the discussion and let everyone else share their point of view. Make sure you describe the play in detail, because I am sure someone saw the game over there. We tend to watch a lot of NCAA games and discuss all kind of plays. I am sure someone saw the play and can tell you the officials that were involved.

So if you baseball only umpires know better than us, ask folks that only work basketball and see what they think.

Peace