Three scenarios from this season

[teebob21]

Since I do not yet have any assignments for HS playoffs here, and Juco is all wrapped up, I'm assuming the meat and potatoes of this year is over for me. Not a bad spring: I worked 70 games or so. Here are three situations that came up that I am interested in hearing fellow umpire's opinions about. What would you have done?

Situation 1 (Rules): BR interferes with F3 (NFHS)

(I was base umpire) Bases loaded, IFF situation. BR hits a pop-up to F3 near the bag over the baseline. I have my signal up, no verbal, and I did not hear a call from PU. BR interferes with F3's attempt to catch the ball, and is declared out by PU. Defense wants R1 on 3B out as well for interference by a retired player.

I got together with my partner on his request (not sure why, it was 115% his call and I was in no position to help judge the batted ball) and no, he had not yet declared IFF and "I dunno" if the ball was fair or foul at the time of INT. We stayed with the original call of BR out, runners return.

I know we can rectify an uncalled IFF, but we can't apply the retired-runner INT penalty to a player we haven't declared out yet, can we??

Situation 2 (Field Mechanics): Runners on corners; stealing 2B (NFHS/NCAA)

Runners on 1B and 3B, I am base umpire. R2 on 1B steals, and F2 throws to 2B. F6 takes the throw, attempts a tag....and all I can see is F6's backside. I had stepped in from C position in a line between 2B and 3B to see a 90-degree angle of R2 coming into the base. I got blocked out like this at least twice this season. This isn't a problem when F4 takes the throw. Should I be moving somewhere else when I read a throw? Should I pay more attention to which fielder is covering?

Situation 3 (Game Management): Who do you eject? (NCAA)

Close ball game, I'm on the plate, 4th or 5th inning. Visiting team (on defense) crosses the line by saying a magic word regarding a ball/strike call (Assistant coach: "This guy is horrible!" among the rest of the comments). I warned the dugout that the zone was not up for discussion, and I'd heard all I was going to hear. Assistant coach wants clarification and I walk down to the bench and tell the hitting coach, assistant, and junior assistant coach to knock it off. Next pitch: swinging strike on a rise ball. Someone on the near end of the visiting bench, while I am signalling, with my eyes on the pitcher: "Blue, you sure?"

I know someone needs to leave, but I don't know exactly who that is because I wasn't looking that way. Who do you think needs ejected?

Edit (forgot to include in OP): Unfortunately, I made a knee-jerk reaction: called time, and emphatically ejected.....someone. I knew I needed to decide quickly, so I walked the 25 feet to the end of the bench and told the AC whoever said "you sure" was done, and if no one said it, he was done. The junior assistant coach got nominated by the AC.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Since I do not yet have any assignments for HS playoffs here, and Juco is all wrapped up, I'm assuming the meat and potatoes of this year is over for me. Not a bad spring: I worked 70 games or so. Here are three situations that came up that I am interested in hearing fellow umpire's opinions about. What would you have done?

Situation 3 (Game Management): Who do you eject? (NCAA)

Close ball game, I'm on the plate, 4th or 5th inning. Visiting team (on defense) crosses the line by saying a magic word regarding a ball/strike call (Assistant coach: "This guy is horrible!" among the rest of the comments). I warned the dugout that the zone was not up for discussion, and I'd heard all I was going to hear. Assistant coach wants clarification and I walk down to the bench and tell the hitting coach, assistant, and junior assistant coach to knock it off. Next pitch: swinging strike on a rise ball. Someone on the near end of the visiting bench, while I am signalling, with my eyes on the pitcher: "Blue, you sure?"

I know someone needs to leave, but I don't know exactly who that is because I wasn't looking that way. Who do you think needs ejected?

Part in Red= Ejection.
Why are you cutting the AC who made that comment any slack???

[AtlUmpSteve]

I'll bite.

1) BR has no right to interfere with F3, whether already retired or not. Does it or should it matter if BR knew she was out on IFF; she interfered, period. No jeopardy attached to BR if call is changed or delayed. If the IFF is the correct call, and is made retroactively, anything that isn't caused by jeopardy due to the changed or delayed call is appropriate.

2. My opinion, do the best you can. And you did what the manual tells you to do. If the teams want you to know what play they are calling or who is covering, they need to tell you, because they are intentionally making it as obscure as possible to fool the offense. Or, they can pay for three umpires that can adequately cover their intended obfuscation.

3. Someone needs to be ejected at that point. (As KJ suggests, possibly before the warning, but you chose that manner of handling.) But, your dilemma is who to eject, because you don't actually know who said it. The good news is NCAA 4.4 covers your situation, because the Head Coach is accountable for (among other things) the team's conduct and ALL communication with the umpire no matter what team personnel actually says (or initiates) it. So, my handling would be to 1) call time, 2) go directly to that team's head coach and tell him/her in as calm a manner as possible that he/she is either a) giving up the guilty party, who will be ejected, or b) he/she is ejected as the one person accountable no matter who actually said it. But that's just me.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Part in Red= Ejection.
Why are you cutting the AC who made that comment any slack???

Why: Volume of the comment (quieter than the rest) and distance (farther than I'd like to be known for having rabbit ears).

Honestly, I can't be certain that's what he said, but maybe I should have pulled the trigger then. I heard "This (syllables) horrible", filled in the rest with what I thought I caught, and decided to warn. At the time, I thought it was appropriate since I hadn't even given them so much as a glance yet. (For those that follow Ignore, Acknowledge, Warn, Eject) There is a glossary of words that are on my mental list requiring immediate action, and "horrible" is one of them, but I don't typically auto-eject unless the word "you" or its variants are attached.

My 2 ejections this year were the first for me in over 10 years, and they came within a week of one another.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I'll bite.

1) BR has no right to interfere with F3, whether already retired or not. Does it or should it matter if BR knew she was out on IFF; she interfered, period. No jeopardy attached to BR if call is changed or delayed. If the IFF is the correct call, and is made retroactively, anything that isn't caused by jeopardy due to the changed or delayed call is appropriate.

2. My opinion, do the best you can. And you did what the manual tells you to do. If the teams want you to know what play they are calling or who is covering, they need to tell you, because they are intentionally making it as obscure as possible to fool the offense. Or, they can pay for three umpires that can adequately cover their intended obfuscation.

3. Someone needs to be ejected at that point. (As KJ suggests, possibly before the warning, but you chose that manner of handling.) But, your dilemma is who to eject, because you don't actually know who said it. The good news is NCAA 4.4 covers your situation, because the Head Coach is accountable for (among other things) the team's conduct and ALL communication with the umpire no matter what team personnel actually says (or initiates) it. So, my handling would be to 1) call time, 2) go directly to that team's head coach and tell him/her in as calm a manner as possible that he/she is either a) giving up the guilty party, who will be ejected, or b) he/she is ejected as the one person accountable no matter who actually said it. But that's just me.

Steve, thanks for the feedback.

On 1, the part where we got stuck was that my partner, the only one in position to make a credible call, just froze up during and after the play. When he didn't know whether it was fair or foul, I couldn't help him rule whether the BR was still alive or out. We decided it was better to eat it than tell either coach we didn't know if the ball was fair or foul. (This was EXTENSIVELY postgamed.)

2. That's what I thought, but there are precious few opportunities to suggest to coaches that they pony up for 3 umpires.

3. I forgot to add what I actually did! I will edit the OP. Unfortunately, I made a knee-jerk reaction: called time, and emphatically ejected.....someone. I knew I needed to decide quickly, so I walked the 25 feet to the end of the bench and told the AC whoever said "you sure" was done, and if no one said it, he was done. The junior assistant coach got nominated by the AC. For this team, the HC sits on a bucket at the far end of the dugout and barely interacts with anyone on the field. I certainly wasn't planning on dumping him for this. Maybe I should have taken it up with the head coach, but at least I sorta got it right.

Not another peep about balls and strikes was heard from either team for the rest of the season. Whatever I did worked.

[chapmaja]

My response is in Blue

Originally Posted by teebob21

Since I do not yet have any assignments for HS playoffs here, and Juco is all wrapped up, I'm assuming the meat and potatoes of this year is over for me. Not a bad spring: I worked 70 games or so. Here are three situations that came up that I am interested in hearing fellow umpire's opinions about. What would you have done?

Situation 1 (Rules): BR interferes with F3 (NFHS)

(I was base umpire) Bases loaded, IFF situation. BR hits a pop-up to F3 near the bag over the baseline. I have my signal up, no verbal, and I did not hear a call from PU. BR interferes with F3's attempt to catch the ball, and is declared out by PU. Defense wants R1 on 3B out as well for interference by a retired player.

I got together with my partner on his request (not sure why, it was 115% his call and I was in no position to help judge the batted ball) and no, he had not yet declared IFF and "I dunno" if the ball was fair or foul at the time of INT. We stayed with the original call of BR out, runners return.

I know we can rectify an uncalled IFF, but we can't apply the retired-runner INT penalty to a player we haven't declared out yet, can we??

I think you did the only thing that you could do on that play. Since the IFF only applies to a fair ball, and the status of the ball has not been determined to be a fair ball, it is a foul ball. Since the BR interfered with the opportunity to catch the foul fly, she is out for interference. You did the right thing in post gaming this situation. There is a reason we are taught status first on flies near the line. A play like this the status means everything (as well as making the call, which goes to knowing the situation and communicating with your partner(s).

As for when you can call it, I think the note at the bottom of 8-2-9 says it all (from the 2013 book). When an infield fly is not initially called, the batter-runner is declared out if brought to the umpires attention before the next pitch. Since it would not have been declared until after the interference, the retired runner interference would not apply (in my opinion). You would have some explaining to do to the coach DC, who likely would be correct in that it were handled properly by the PU, it would be multiple outs.


Situation 2 (Field Mechanics): Runners on corners; stealing 2B (NFHS/NCAA)

Runners on 1B and 3B, I am base umpire. R2 on 1B steals, and F2 throws to 2B. F6 takes the throw, attempts a tag....and all I can see is F6's backside. I had stepped in from C position in a line between 2B and 3B to see a 90-degree angle of R2 coming into the base. I got blocked out like this at least twice this season. This isn't a problem when F4 takes the throw. Should I be moving somewhere else when I read a throw? Should I pay more attention to which fielder is covering?


Honestly, I agree with the other comments, you do the best you can. If you are were you are supposed to be on the play, and this happens, you have the umpire manual to fall back on. You were in the proper position and circumstances lead you to being blocked out.
Situation 3 (Game Management): Who do you eject? (NCAA)

Close ball game, I'm on the plate, 4th or 5th inning. Visiting team (on defense) crosses the line by saying a magic word regarding a ball/strike call (Assistant coach: "This guy is horrible!" among the rest of the comments). I warned the dugout that the zone was not up for discussion, and I'd heard all I was going to hear. Assistant coach wants clarification and I walk down to the bench and tell the hitting coach, assistant, and junior assistant coach to knock it off. Next pitch: swinging strike on a rise ball. Someone on the near end of the visiting bench, while I am signalling, with my eyes on the pitcher: "Blue, you sure?"

I know someone needs to leave, but I don't know exactly who that is because I wasn't looking that way. Who do you think needs ejected?

Edit (forgot to include in OP): Unfortunately, I made a knee-jerk reaction: called time, and emphatically ejected.....someone. I knew I needed to decide quickly, so I walked the 25 feet to the end of the bench and told the AC whoever said "you sure" was done, and if no one said it, he was done. The junior assistant coach got nominated by the AC.



I generally will not listen to much to the bench, unless it is so loud it can be heard by all parties in the general vicinity. Maybe this is the basketball official coming out. I tend to take more than some others will in terms of behavior. I used to be rabbit ears and it got me in trouble. I have yet to eject a coach or player from a FP game. (Tossed one SP guy for multiple F-bombs at me). With all of that said, I will ignore for awhile then warn. That generally goes the trick and I normally don't hear anything else. In this case, once you warned through, and the comment came, you needed to eject someone. I personally would have gone to the head coach and told the HC that you need to find out who said it, or it will be you exiting the game. Ultimately, even if it is not specified in the rule book, the HC is responsible for the conduct of his/her team.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Situation 1 (Rules): BR interferes with F3 (NFHS)

(I was base umpire) Bases loaded, IFF situation. BR hits a pop-up to F3 near the bag over the baseline. I have my signal up, no verbal, and I did not hear a call from PU. BR interferes with F3's attempt to catch the ball, and is declared out by PU. Defense wants R1 on 3B out as well for interference by a retired player.

I got together with my partner on his request (not sure why, it was 115% his call and I was in no position to help judge the batted ball) and no, he had not yet declared IFF and "I dunno" if the ball was fair or foul at the time of INT. We stayed with the original call of BR out, runners return.

I know we can rectify an uncalled IFF, but we can't apply the retired-runner INT penalty to a player we haven't declared out yet, can we??

If it was an IF (and the "I dunno" may indicate there isn't), the BR is out, by rule. Now the question is of any attached jeopardy created by the delayed call? Since this is a punitive effect and that runner would have been ruled out even if the IF was called in a timely fashion, I see no jeopardy to R1 caused by the umpire's delayed ruling. R2 & R3 returned to 2B & 1B, respectively

Situation 2 (Field Mechanics): Runners on corners; stealing 2B (NFHS/NCAA)

Runners on 1B and 3B, I am base umpire. R2 on 1B steals, and F2 throws to 2B. F6 takes the throw, attempts a tag....and all I can see is F6's backside. I had stepped in from C position in a line between 2B and 3B to see a 90-degree angle of R2 coming into the base. I got blocked out like this at least twice this season. This isn't a problem when F4 takes the throw. Should I be moving somewhere else when I read a throw? Should I pay more attention to which fielder is covering?

Knowing who is taking the throw always helps. Assuming it is always going to be F4 is not a good idea. You listen to the chatter. If it is a team that will change up things every now and then, I might even ask the nearest fielder (yes, I know that is frowned upon in some cases). You do the best you can to cover the play. If you need to adjust your approach to the base, don't hesitate to grab a different angle.

Situation 3 (Game Management): Who do you eject? (NCAA)

Close ball game, I'm on the plate, 4th or 5th inning. Visiting team (on defense) crosses the line by saying a magic word regarding a ball/strike call (Assistant coach: "This guy is horrible!" among the rest of the comments). I warned the dugout that the zone was not up for discussion, and I'd heard all I was going to hear. Assistant coach wants clarification and I walk down to the bench and tell the hitting coach, assistant, and junior assistant coach to knock it off. Next pitch: swinging strike on a rise ball. Someone on the near end of the visiting bench, while I am signalling, with my eyes on the pitcher: "Blue, you sure?"

I know someone needs to leave, but I don't know exactly who that is
because I wasn't looking that way. Who do you think needs ejected?

Edit (forgot to include in OP): Unfortunately, I made a knee-jerk reaction: called time, and emphatically ejected.....someone. I knew I needed to decide quickly, so I walked the 25 feet to the end of the bench and told the AC whoever said "you sure" was done, and if no one said it, he was done. The junior assistant coach got nominated by the AC.

Well, if the manager (HC) cannot manage and control his/her team, guess there is no real reason for he/she/it to be there

Edited to satisfy Dakota's propensity for correct grammar

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Well, if the manager (HC) cannot manage and control his/her team, guess there is no real reason for them to be there

THEM???? Teams now have a plurality of managers?

[CajunNewBlue]

you could always "get" the current pitcher...that's always a popular choice.

btw. you should have issued an official warning.

btw #2 .... the term "rabbit ears" is concerning the fans.... we as umpires are responsible for everything said and done ... inside the fences. "and sometimes outside them" in certain scenarios... warmup areas..etc.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

R3 is out for INT regardless of IF. If it was an IF (and the "I dunno" may indicate there isn't), the BR is out, by rule. Now the question is of any attached jeopardy created by the delayed call? Since this is a punitive effect and that runner would have been ruled out even if the IF was called in a timely fashion, I see no jeopardy caused by the umpire's delayed ruling.

I'm thinking that calling R3 out here is just misreading the OP? BR interfered not any of the runners.

As to the OP itself, we have this argument every so often and I thought we had settled a few times on: interference before the IF conditions are met nullifies the IF. (That is the ball was not fair yet so it wasn't an infield fly.) I have a vague memory of a rule or caseplay that says this but I'll have to look tomorrow unless someone else remembers the details.
Regardless of that, I'm sure that it cannot be correct that the determining factor in this call is when you call the batter-runner out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm thinking that calling R3 out here is just misreading the OP? BR interfered not any of the runners.

You are absolutely correct

As to the OP itself, we have this argument every so often and I thought we had settled a few times on: interference before the IF conditions are met nullifies the IF. (That is the ball was not fair yet so it wasn't an infield fly.) I have a vague memory of a rule or caseplay that says this but I'll have to look tomorrow unless someone else remembers the details.
Regardless of that, I'm sure that it cannot be correct that the determining factor in this call is when you call the batter-runner out.

I disagree. The IF is an IF. There is no method of circumventing the rule. You argue that if you cannot determine fair, it cannot be an IF. I argue that unless you can show it is foul, the IF is in effect. The status of a ball in flight when the play becomes dead is determined by its position at that time. A batted ball must be fair or foul, it cannot be an "I dunno"

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I disagree. The IF is an IF. There is no method of circumventing the rule. You argue that if you cannot determine fair, it cannot be an IF. I argue that unless you can show it is foul, the IF is in effect. The status of a ball in flight when the play becomes dead is determined by its position at that time. A batted ball must be fair or foul, it cannot be an "I dunno"

I'm not saying it's an "I dunno". I'm saying that there's no double jeopardy here. The IF is not invoked until the ball becomes fair or foul so the BR is not out until the interference occurs so the BR is not a retired runner interfering with the play. I couldn't find anything exactly on point, but if instead of interfering with a fielder the BR had interfered with the ball then the rule explicitly says one out and dead ball and I don't think the lack of saying that for the fielder changes anything. He may be out twice but he's certainly not two outs.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm not saying it's an "I dunno". I'm saying that there's no double jeopardy here. The IF is not invoked until the ball becomes fair or foul so the BR is not out until the interference occurs so the BR is not a retired runner interfering with the play. I couldn't find anything exactly on point, but if instead of interfering with a fielder the BR had interfered with the ball then the rule explicitly says one out and dead ball and I don't think the lack of saying that for the fielder changes anything. He may be out twice but he's certainly not two outs.

Again, I'm going to disagree. The BR is out when s/he hits the ball which becomes an IF. And as previously noted, I agree there is no jeopardy attached, so I don't think we can double it

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If it was an IF (and the "I dunno" may indicate there isn't), the BR is out, by rule. Now the question is of any attached jeopardy created by the delayed call? Since this is a punitive effect and that runner would have been ruled out even if the IF was called in a timely fashion, I see no jeopardy to R1 caused by the umpire's delayed ruling. R2 & R3 returned to 2B & 1B, respectively

I don't think that was his original question. If the batter is out on the declared IFF call, she is now considered a retired batter. Then, she runs into F3 and prevents her from catching the fly ball. Since we now have a retired batter interfering with the fielder's opportunity to field a batted ball, do we invoke FED 8-6-16c and rule the runner closest to home out as well? Unless I missed it, I'm not sure I saw an answer here.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I don't think that was his original question. If the batter is out on the declared IFF call, she is now considered a retired batter. Then, she runs into F3 and prevents her from catching the fly ball. Since we now have a retired batter interfering with the fielder's opportunity to field a batted ball, do we invoke FED 8-6-16c and rule the runner closest to home out as well? Unless I missed it, I'm not sure I saw an answer here.

I agree that seems to be the question.

Let's take the "I dunno" out of it and say it was a fair ball.

BR out by rule, so she is retired at the time of the interference (even if the IF is called late).

If the umpire judges that the fielder had a chance for a live ball appeal on one of the other runners, is the runner closest to home out?