Two scenarios

[Danvrapp]

Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Hmm, I can't see why #18 is false, maybe I'm not reading
it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on
the clock for a correctable error.

On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is
released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted
it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally
at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact
the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are
not tried.

[BktBallRef]

I believe that Bob is saying the game is over and it's too late to correct the error.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

I'm glad to see someone reads the articles.

As I said (I hope) in the article, I got this question wrong.

The error is discovered during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started. Had this not been complicated by the end of the game, we'd take B's points off the board and resume play.

So, the only conclusion (other than the given answer is incorrect) is that you can't correct an error after the game is over. I can't find any support for this in the rule book (other than a hyper-technical reading of 2-10-4).

Now, what if B's free throws only tied the game? The game isn't "over" so we correct the error? Now, by taking B's points off the board, A wins, so the game is over, so we can't correct the error, so the game is tied, and not over, so we correct the error ...

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Since the shot wasn't released before the horn, the shot doesn't count. The fact that A was fouled doesn't change this. 6-6-2

However, A was still fouled in the act of shooting, so she gets her three free throws, if they will affect the game. Once A misses the first, A can't tie or win, so the remaining throws aren't shot. 5-7-c1.

Thanks for the comments.

[Dan_ref]

So we are saying that #18 is TRUE, take the points off &
declare A the winner? As Bob said, there doesn't seem
to be support in the rules for the end of the game
to take precedence over or nullify 2-10.

[Danvrapp]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
So we are saying that #18 is TRUE, take the points off &
declare A the winner? As Bob said, there doesn't seem
to be support in the rules for the end of the game
to take precedence over or nullify 2-10.

Actually, from Bob's response, I believe #18 is false, but now we're trying to discern why it's false. Bob thinks it's because the game is over, and therefore the error no longer correctable, but I don't know...? Of all the provisions you need for a correctable error, I didn't think one of them states that the game can't be over. Of course, if you read Bob's post above, it appears that you could be caught in a vicious cycle, and I don't think that's entirely right, either

[Dan_ref]

Bob referenced 2-10-4, claiming you need a hyper-technical
reading of it to conclude #18 is false. Here it is (from
the NCAA book):


When an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the
point at which it was interrupted to correct the error,
unless the correction involves awarding merited free
throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession
since the error was made. In that case, play shall resume
as after any normal free throw attempts(s).


So now I'm wondering how does one read this and infer it
does not apply after the final horn? Are we saying that
"play shall be resumed" should be read as "play must
be resumed for this rule to apply"? That is
certainly a stretch. Is there another rule, case book play
or interpretation I'm missing?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 24th, 2001 at 10:14 AM]

[BktBallRef]

What Bob said was that he also answered the question TRUE. But the theory is that the game is over. Therefore, the error cannot be corrected. As he said, there is no support for such a ruling in the rulebook, so it's unclear as to why the writers of the quiz arrived at this conclsuion. I would love to hear their explanation.

As for a sitch where the thrower only hit one FT and tied the game, I believe there is a casebook play that covers this type of situation. If the game ends in a tie, any corrections made to the score are made and the OT is played anyway. I can see where the same principle would apply in this situation.

Farfetched?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
What Bob said was that he also answered the question TRUE. But the theory is that the game is over. Therefore, the error cannot be corrected.

Interesting theory but it's not entirely consistent with
the rule that defines when the official's (referee's)
jurisdiction ends.

As he said, there is no support for such a ruling in the rulebook, so it's unclear as to why the writers of the quiz arrived at this conclsuion. I would love to hear their explanation.

So would I.

As for a sitch where the thrower only hit one FT and tied the game, I believe there is a casebook play that covers this type of situation. If the game ends in a tie, any corrections made to the score are made and the OT is played anyway. I can see where the same principle would apply in this situation.

Farfetched?

You are still referring to #18, no? I know of this case
and I can see where it might be used as an argument for
making #18 false, but I can't seem to find the darn thing.
Do you have the case number for this play?

[Mark Dexter]

I don't see what part of #18 would make this a false. It seems as if all of the CE requirements have been satisfied:

(1) It is the first dead ball after the clock has properly started after the error. (Shots, clock starts on inbounds, dead ball at expiration of playing time.)

(2) Points scored and time consumed prior to recognition were not nullified. (Remember - the only time that time is added is in an obvious timer's mistake or in the "specific situation" where A gets the ball after A scores.)

(3) Play was resumed from the point where the error was discovered.

I don't see anything in the situation or rules that would suggest not correcting this error. There is no OT involved, so 5.7.1 doesn't apply. (I think this is one of the situations that BktBallRef was referring.)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

(3) Play was resumed from the point where the error was discovered.

Ah, but the game was over so there is no resumption of play. This may be the sticking point.

5-3 says, "The winning team is the one which has accumulated the greater number of points when the game ends."

It doesn't say "when the game ends, unless a correctalbe error situation exists."

[PAULK1]

I agree that in play 18 it is correctable.
I wish to play devils advocate with 22.
since the foul had to come before the horn don't we have at least 1/10th of a second left on the clock we have definite knowledge since we blew the whistle before the horn. If we still have time left isn't the continous motion excetption
applied.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PAULK1
I wish to play devils advocate with 22.
since the foul had to come before the horn don't we have at least 1/10th of a second left on the clock we have definite knowledge since we blew the whistle before the horn. If we still have time left isn't the continous motion excetption
applied.

Yes, continous motion applies or else we wouldn't shoot the FTs. But the shot must still be released prior to the horn to count. It wasn't. No basket. With regards to the clock, you can only have definite knowledge if you were looking at the the clock when the whistle blew. Otherwise, we can't "guess" how much time should be on the clock.

I'm not convinced #18 is true. Hopefully, I'll never have this one!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


I'm not convinced #18 is true. Hopefully, I'll never have this one!

And I'm not convinced that #18 is false Hopefully,
neither you nor I will ever have this one! As for 5-3,
the game ends when the score is verified, which happens
when the officials leave the visual confines, which is also
when our jurisdiction ends. So the answer might actually
be when the table tells you that B was *not* in the bonus
just hight-tail it the f*** out of there! And make sure
your dressing room door is LOCKED!

[BktBallRef]

I don't believe the official's jurisdiction has anything to do with this play. If it did, the score could easily be changed. When we say the score is verifed, we're saying that the scoreboard matches the book, everyone knows who wins and we're outta here. That's usually the extent of verifying the final score. I would still like to hear from Bob on what the author of the quiz was baseing his information on.

Bob, where are you?