Projected Sub...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

Yes, it does. MD disagrees with Mike and Steve. His position is that you cannot make a substitution for a player unless that player is going to play in the game at that moment. I couldn't quite explain to you why he thinks it's this way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well ... it was 3 pages the last time you and AtlSteve argued about this (2010).

Well, we were not arguing (with each other). And as is now, we were on the same page. BTW, it was only 2 pages

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes, it does. MD disagrees with Mike and Steve. His position is that you cannot make a substitution for a player unless that player is going to play in the game at that moment. I couldn't quite explain to you why he thinks it's this way.

As I stated three years ago, you maintain the line-up and only the line-up. You don't worry about anything other than being a body in a slot in the batting order.

Do not construe that to mean that I believe the other rules (DP/Flex, re-entry, etc.) do not apply. They do, but for the purpose of making a change, when you get it, you write it down and it is effective. You do not worry about WHEN or WHERE they are going into the field or bat, they are in the game when you take the change.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You do not worry about WHEN or WHERE they are going into the field or bat, they are in the game when you take the change.

Absolutely correct.

This plays exactly into one of my peeves: we make/take substitutions, that's it. However, we have fostered a culture where we say: "15 will bat for 12" or "15 will pinch run for 12" or "15 is going to play right field for 4"*. All of these are just substitutions, nothing more, nothing less. What we as umpires need to care about on the line up card:
1. The batting order
2. Who is listed as DP/Flex (if used)
3. Who was the last players to pitch/catch for the purposes of CR's (if allowed by rules code) - And who was the CR, when and for whom.
4. Who is in the game and who has re-entry
*5. defensive positions if played under NCAA rules due to the definition of a proper line up card.
6. Also conferences, warnings, etc.

We need to use language properly. A coach may say "I don't have to tell you that 15 is back in the game, I told you that 12 was her pinch runner" or "I told you that 12 was pinch hitting for 15, I didn't say she was going into the field for 15." I admit, those situations are rather rare, but not totally impossible.

My biggest pet peeve about line up comes from umpires themselves. If you are one of those guys who, at the plate meeting, previews a line up card and says: "I see you have 15 (pointing to the DP) batting for 12 (pointing to the flex)" . . . NO NO NO NO. Just check the line up, count the players, and if there are 10 (or how many ever your rule code allows), make sure the DP and Flex are listed properly. The roles of the DP/Flex are not exclusive to the "hitting for" role.

Bottom line, if a coach wants to make an offensive substitution when its not the players turn at bat, I'll tell the coach of the implications, and them let the coach make that choice to either make the substitution now or later. That's not projected and very much allowed.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You quote a bunch of non ASA rules after this... which are irrelevant. I can quote other orgs of baseball and softball that say the opposite - which are equally as irrelevant.

You can tell us here, on the internet where everything is true, that accepting multiple substitutions on offense should be allowed... but until ASA bothers defining "projected substitutions", or gets specific about when substitutions are official - it's just words.

I know that you, and Mike, are generally in the room when this stuff is discussed. So I believe you if you say that is the intent of ASA --- but given that this is different from many other rulesets (both BB and SB), it needs to be codified.

Of course the original question had nothing to do with ASA.... LOL

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Manny, this one as a projected:
"Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

Oh, I get it now. Where it says in NFHS 3-3-3, "Projected substitutions are not permitted," I'm supposed to interpret that as meaning, "DEFENSIVE projected substitutions are not permitted."

And where it says in ASA 4-6-A, "The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters," it really means, "The manager or team representative of the team making the DEFENSIVE substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the DEFENSIVE substitute enters."

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Oh, I get it now. Where it says in NFHS 3-3-3, "Projected substitutions are not permitted," I'm supposed to interpret that as meaning, "DEFENSIVE projected substitutions are not permitted."

And where it says in ASA 4-6-A, "The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters," it really means, "The manager or team representative of the team making the DEFENSIVE substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the DEFENSIVE substitute enters."

You can enter the game on offense without immediate participation. Same on defense. Here is your example #1:
One the last play of an inning, #3 gets injured while recording the last out. She is due to bat 7th that inning. The coach informs you that #8 will be replacing her. Are you going to not allow the coach to make that substitution? And if she doesn't bat, wouldn't that become a defacto defensive substitution? There is at least one rule code that REQUIRES a substitution at that point (NCAA)

Oh, then there is example #2: on the last play of the inning, #3, while recording the last out, is ejected (for what ever reason). ASA and NCAA both REQUIRE a valid substitution to continue, which means a player enters the game without immediate participation.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Oh, I get it now. Where it says in NFHS 3-3-3, "Projected substitutions are not permitted," I'm supposed to interpret that as meaning, "DEFENSIVE projected substitutions are not permitted."

And where it says in ASA 4-6-A, "The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters," it really means, "The manager or team representative of the team making the DEFENSIVE substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the DEFENSIVE substitute enters."

Would you allow this? Baker is playing Flex. Jones is Playing DP. In their defensive half of the inning, the coach comes out to you and tells you Jones will start playing Defense for Smith. Smith mad about this yells at the coach. The coach comes back out and tells you that Brown is replacing Smith.
It has no immediate impact on the game since Brown and Smith will continue to occupy their same seats on the bench, but it is an immediate substitution.

[RKBUmp]

Would you allow this? Baker is playing Flex. Jones is Playing DP. In their defensive half of the inning, the coach comes out to you and tells you Jones will start playing Defense for Smith. Smith mad about this yells at the coach. The coach comes back out and tells you that Brown is replacing Smith.
It has no immediate impact on the game since Brown and Smith will continue to occupy their same seats on the bench, but it is an immediate substitution.

If Im following this correctly, you dont have anything to record and there has been no substitutions. The DP can play defense for anyone, except the flex and it is not a substitution. The only times the coach really needs to inform you of the DP playing a defensive position is when they are the pitcher or catcher for courtesy runner purposes, and if they do play defense for the flex, because then you do have a substitution.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes, it does. MD disagrees with Mike and Steve. His position is that you cannot make a substitution for a player unless that player is going to play in the game at that moment. I couldn't quite explain to you why he thinks it's this way.

Here's the part I believe MD and Manny A are missing.

All 9 (or 10) players in the lineup on both teams are playing in the game at all times; from start (lineup accepted at pregame conference) to finish (game ends by rule). Offensive players listed in the lineup, but not currently batting or running, are still in the game, whether in the on-deck circle, sitting on the bench, or even possibly warming up in the bullpen; and can be replaced by a legal substitute, at any time.

This is true and cited earlier in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA Softball. In fact, I am not familiar with any version of softball that doesn't believe that to be true.

I also doubt that baseball actually has any rules that clearly state an offensive player not currently batting or running cannot be substituted. I would expect they all have language indicating substitutes are in the game when reported/recorded/accepted. I strongly suspect that misguided direction has convinced umpires that what we have discussed in this thread is a "projected" substitution; but if you consider what I stated above, that ALL current players on both teams are in the game, then you have to see that replacing one on either team isn't projected, it is happening when reported/recorded/accepted (whatever specific language indicated.

And, again, to my knowledge, the only rules (especially softball, but again, almost assuredly baseball) that make a substitute "officially" in the game only if they take a position or action in live play (be it defensive position, throwing a pitch, a pitch being thrown, etc.) are those describing when an unreported or illegal substitute are in the game, for the sole purpose of describing when those actions are appealable or correctable.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

You can enter the game on offense without immediate participation. Same on defense. Here is your example #1:
One the last play of an inning, #3 gets injured while recording the last out. She is due to bat 7th that inning. The coach informs you that #8 will be replacing her. Are you going to not allow the coach to make that substitution? And if she doesn't bat, wouldn't that become a defacto defensive substitution? There is at least one rule code that REQUIRES a substitution at that point (NCAA)

Oh, then there is example #2: on the last play of the inning, #3, while recording the last out, is ejected (for what ever reason). ASA and NCAA both REQUIRE a valid substitution to continue, which means a player enters the game without immediate participation.

You've provided two extraordinary circumstances that, without delving into rulebooks right now, have specific mandates in the codes that deal with them. I'm sticking to the basics that you would routinely see during games.

We'll just have to A2D on this. Like I've said before, during the course of a game, I've never accepted projected substitute batters, projected courtesy runner entries, etc. etc., and I've never had a coach complain to me when I've asked him/her to wait until the substitute actually enters the game.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

You've provided two extraordinary circumstances that, without delving into rulebooks right now, have specific mandates in the codes that deal with them. I'm sticking to the basics that you would routinely see during games.

We'll just have to A2D on this. Like I've said before, during the course of a game, I've never accepted projected substitute batters, projected courtesy runner entries, etc. etc., and I've never had a coach complain to me when I've asked him/her to wait until the substitute actually enters the game.

I will agree that you have never accepted projected subs. You have, however, refused to accept substitutions that weren't projected, and could have been made then, by considering them projected.

You have also likely enabled coaches to "change their mind", and thus likely disadvantaged the opponent, by not accepting substitutions for players then in the game when reported.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Manny A

You've provided two extraordinary circumstances that, without delving into rulebooks right now, have specific mandates in the codes that deal with them. I'm sticking to the basics that you would routinely see during games.

We'll just have to A2D on this. Like I've said before, during the course of a game, I've never accepted projected substitute batters, projected courtesy runner entries, etc. etc., and I've never had a coach complain to me when I've asked him/her to wait until the substitute actually enters the game.

Even extraordinary circumstances must follow the allowable rules.

With that being said, there is a difference between CAN and MUST. In the injury scenario, only NCAA requires that the coach make the immediate substitution, therefore MUST. In either NFHS or ASA, the coach CAN make the substitution immediately, or when that particular spot is of consequence (batting or taking a defensive position). In the latter two cases, it is allowable, but not mandatory.
In the ejection scenario, there is a MUST for ASA and NCAA (not NFHS). NCAA you cannot play short handed under any circumstance (which covers the injury case as well), ASA cannot play short handed due to ejection.

Ergo, you may not see these scenarios, but these are examples that show an allowable rule on substitution, that any legal player may enter the line up without immediate participation. If the coach gives you a legal change, make the change, report it to the proper people and play on. It doesn't have to be complicated.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

The fundamental theory is not to accept future movement of the players (projected substitution) if I say that #10 who is in the bullpen will pitch to the 3rd batter that is a future movement of the players!

Telling me to enter sub #30 for layer #11 and sub #25 for player #33 at the beginning of an inning whether offensive or defensive is a current action and not projected.

Now if I give you #30 for #11 and the state that if #30 gets on #12 will run for her that will not work. I will say #30 is in the game for #11 and let me know when you enter #12 in the game.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

One the last play of an inning, #3 gets injured while recording the last out. She is due to bat 7th that inning. ... There is at least one rule code that REQUIRES a substitution at that point (NCAA)

There is no ruleset that requires the manager at this point to decide whether #3 will be able to play when either her at bat comes around or they head back out to defense.

What rule in the NCAA code do you think tells you to require a substitution right then and there, after an apparent injury but before that player is required to DO anything?