Projected Sub...

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But look at 4-6-A, Dave. I don't have a recent version of the rulebook here at work. I have an electronic version of the 2008 book. And in 4-6-A, it says [my emphasis in bold]:

"The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer."

I guess we are just seeing two different things here. I agree A still says what you quoted. However, I read that simply as "When the coach wants the player to enter the game they tell the plate umpire (4-6-A) Once that is done they are officially in the game (4-6-B)." I don't read or see anything else there. Tell me when you want them in the game and it's done they are in the game at that point.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by Andy

and I tell the coach that once I record those, the subs are in the game and if there is a change made before that player comes to bat, I will apply the substitution rules.

Then this is no longer a "projected" sub.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I guess we are just seeing two different things here. I agree A still says what you quoted. However, I read that simply as "When the coach wants the player to enter the game they tell the plate umpire (4-6-A) Once that is done they are officially in the game (4-6-B)." I don't read or see anything else there. Tell me when you want them in the game and it's done they are in the game at that point.

So, it's your position that when the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I want substitute Suzie to bat for starter Stacey when Stacey comes up this inning," Suzie is now officially in the game. And you're going to announce that to the opposing coach and the official scorer.

But then Suzie, who was due to bat seventh in the inning, never comes anywhere near the plate. So when the coach says, "Blue, I'm putting Stacey back on the field, and since Suzie never batted for her, it's not a re-entry, right?" you're going to tell the coach that Suzie WAS in the game, even though she never got an official appearance, and that Stacey burned her one re-entry. Is that correct?

Well, I'll never let that happen.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly - both of these viewpoints can be right. Given that ASA didn't bother to define "projected sub" - going back and forth is rather worthless.

As long as we are self-consistent during a game, either way should not have problems.

Method A - To my mind, a person doesn't enter the game until she actually begins to participate and the person she's replacing is no longer participating. On defense, this is easy and we don't seem to have any disagreement. On offense, TO ME, that means - when they are about to come to bat. If this is your viewpoint, and you A) don't write anything down until it becomes official and B) notify the opposing coach and the scorekeeper of the change at this moment (and not earlier), you will not run into problems.

Method B - Conversely - if you go with Dave's way (which is also Irish's way from a previous thread), and accept any changes to the batting lineup in advance of the inning started, then as long as you A) write them ALL down when the coach gives them to you, B) inform the opposing coach and scorekeeper of ALL the changes when you write them down ... then again, you will not run into any problems. (Probably should inform the coach making the changes that they are official as of that moment too, just in case the below cases happen)

The only real difference lies in the two cases mentioned above:
1) Coach says Suzie is coming in for Sally to bat, but Sally's AB never comes - with method A, Suzie has still not entered the game, and Sally has not left... with method B, Suzie's already in the game, and Sally is not.
2) Coach says Suzie is coming in for Sally (batting later than Beth), but Beth gets injured during her at bat and coach now wants to put in Suzie for Beth... method A - no problem, coach; method B - No coach, Suzie's already in the game.

I think you run into no coaching issues in either of those cases with Method A - and you could with Method B. But again, as long as we are self-consistent and communicating with the coaches, we can justify (by rule) either method.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

And if I'm the PU, the only way that happens is when the coach gives me the change(s), I confirm the change with him, record it on my lineup card, inform the official scorer and the opposing team.

"I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning"...
"Ok Coach, I'll take the change from you when your ready to send her up to hit."
Ditto for a defensive change(s).
And then the coach and I will do the change.


I've got too many other things on my mind to

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

Are you saying that if OC tells you 23 for 24 and 25 for 26 and 24 bats but 26 doesn't, then 26 goes out on defense that you will say she's unreported?

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

And if I'm the PU, the only way that happens is when the coach gives me the change(s), I confirm the change with him, record it on my lineup card, inform the official scorer and the opposing team.

"I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning"...
"Ok Coach, I'll take the change from you when your ready to send her up to hit."
Ditto for a defensive change(s).
And then the coach and I will do the change.


I've got too many other things on my mind to

I've got too many other things on my mind than to care when she's due up. Coach gives me subs, I record and announce.

[PATRICK]

I just found this. I know OP isn't NCAA, but here's their rule.

8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead.

8.5.1.2 A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

I just found this. I know OP isn't NCAA, but here's their rule.

8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead.

8.5.1.2 A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

As this issue has also been discussed in the thread, I'll add it to your two cites:
8.5.1.8 Substitutes shall be considered officially in the game when the substitution is reported to and accepted by the plate umpire, recorded on the official lineup card and announced to the opposing coach, scorekeepers, the official scorer and the public-address announcer.

Ties up all the loose ends.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Maybe it is me, but three pages on this subject is a little disturbing.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yeah, I'm having the same thought.

People, a coach can make a substitution, and multiple substitutions, at any time on both defense and offense. When the change is accepted (and fully processed, recorded, and announced), the substitution has happened. If the coach chooses to replace all 9 players on offense at one time, you accept 9 substitutions. Now. They are entered now. If the coach wants to change that later, that is a re-entry, or another substitution. Then; and he has to live with the substitutions previously made. The player being replaced is replaced when reported and recorded, and it has NOTHING to do with which player is at bat.

Projected in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA means 25 for 30, and I will re-enter 30 on defense at the end of the inning. You accept 25 for 30, and you tell the coach he must re-enter 30 when 30 is being re-entered, not now. If coach tells you 25 for 30, 18 for 23, and 5 for 12, you make three substitutions; now. You do not have the right to refuse to allow a coach to make a legal substitution now, even if the coach may later regret it. That part is his problem.

Whomever told you accepting multiple substitutions on offense is projeected, that you can only accept changes on the current batter, is completely wrong. The NCAA rule saying "8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead." NFHS 3-3-2 also states "A substitute may replace any player when the ball is dead or time has been called." ASA RS#51 adds "A substitute is considered in the game when reported to the plate umpire"; only unreported subs need to actually participate to be considered officially in the game.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

People, a coach can make a substitution, and multiple substitutions, at any time on both defense and offense. When the change is accepted (and fully processed, recorded, and announced), the substitution has happened.

So let me get this straight. I mentioned this in a previous post.

Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

I have to take that substitution and announce it to the opposing coach?

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So let me get this straight. I mentioned this in a previous post.

Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

I have to take that substitution and announce it to the opposing coach?

That's a perfect example of a projected substitution.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So let me get this straight. I mentioned this in a previous post.

Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

The umpire's response to the coach should be: "Coach, give me the change when it happens."

I have to take that substitution and announce it to the opposing coach?

WHEN the change is given to you.

A substitution takes place when it is provided to the umpire, not when a particular scenario occurs or any other particular point in the game arrives. This way, when the coach changes his/her mind because the anticipated scenario did not occur, there is no excuse of forgetting to rectify the situation.

Like in football where they inform the official that as xx:xx left on the clock, they are going to request a time out. However, they must still inform the official of the request AT THE TIME it occurs.

Coach wants to give you a heads up on a possible change, that is fine, but that is not the change.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

Are you saying that if OC tells you 23 for 24 and 25 for 26 and 24 bats but 26 doesn't, then 26 goes out on defense that you will say she's unreported?

If all this happens when I'm umpiring, then I'm only taking the sub when it happens, and I'm telling him so. I am not taking 25 for 26 at that moment - and coach will know that.