Projected Sub...

[Chess Ref]

At our HS meeting last night the question came up about projected subs.

The example used is as follows, Team batting wants to sub #25 in for #30.

#30 isn't due to bat until 5th in the inning. We had a blue make a somewhat reasonable argument that we shouldn't accept that substitution until it was #30's turn at bat. His reasoning was that at that point it's a projected sub.

I looked through the rule book and couldn't find anything to clarify.

Any thoughts?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Do you allow them to tell you that the sub they are entering now will be re-entered for before the re-entry actually occurs? I don't allow this mostly because I don't want to forget. I don't think you should do anything until the sub is actually entering the game.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I looked through the rule book and couldn't find anything to clarify.

Look at rule 3-3-3 on page 32 of this year's rule book:

"The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team's head coach. Projected substitutions are not permitted. If there is no announcement..."

The italicized portion is a new change to this year's book.

[Chess Ref]

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

I agree the coach stating the reentry would be a projected sub. The example you used seems to be an apple to oranges kind of deal.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

At our HS meeting last night the question came up about projected subs.

The example used is as follows, Team batting wants to sub #25 in for #30.

#30 isn't due to bat until 5th in the inning. We had a blue make a somewhat reasonable argument that we shouldn't accept that substitution until it was #30's turn at bat. His reasoning was that at that point it's a projected sub.

I looked through the rule book and couldn't find anything to clarify.

Any thoughts?

It's clearly projected until the player comes to the plate. 3-3-3 deal with projected substitutes.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

No. I would reach into my ball bag, pull out my lineup card, notice that he/she is trying to give me a projected substitute, and tell him/her, "Sorry, coach, but you can't give me a sub until the time she actually enters the game," and then put my lineup card back in my bag.

Here's the dilemma. Let's say you accept the substitution, and enter #25 in #30's batting position. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double, and the coach doesn't have anybody on the bench to bring in for #15.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

No. I would reach into my ball bag, pull out my lineup card, notice that he/she is trying to give me a projected substitute, and tell him/her, "Sorry, coach, but you can't give me a sub until the time she actually enters the game," and then put my lineup card back in my bag.

Here's the dilemma. Let's say you accept the substitution, and enter #25 in #30's batting position. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double, and the coach doesn't have anybody on the bench to bring in for #15.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

[Andy]

I will not accept the "25 is batting for 30, then 30 will re-enter on defense" sub.

I will however, accept the coach that comes out at the beginning of the inning and tells me that "13 will bat for 17, 5 will bat for 7, and 14 will bat for 16."

I understand that these are considered projected subs, and I tell the coach that once I record those, the subs are in the game and if there is a change made before that player comes to bat, I will apply the substitution rules.

Since this is generally done late in a game that is pretty much decided, I think it saves time and keeps the game moving as opposed to taking and recording the subs one at a time. May not be exactly by the book, but that is what I do.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Andy

I will not accept the "25 is batting for 30, then 30 will re-enter on defense" sub.

I will however, accept the coach that comes out at the beginning of the inning and tells me that "13 will bat for 17, 5 will bat for 7, and 14 will bat for 16."

I understand that these are considered projected subs, and I tell the coach that once I record those, the subs are in the game

See, there's no rules basis for putting those subs in the game at that point.

(And I'm assuming the projected sub rule is the same in NFHS softball as it is in baseball. I tend to follow the board using the new posts link and I missed that this was a softball thread. Sorry.)

[KJUmp]

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

You are certainly within your rights to do that. I'm just telling you what I'd do (in a baseball game -- that's all I work). I remember the position and will pull the card out and report it when the player comes to the plate. Just saves a little time -- but I can get why others wouldn't want to do it.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Manny A

No.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

"Coach, #25 is already in the game."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

"Coach, #25 is already in the game."

By rule, she's not. Projected substitutes are not allowed.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

It's not only a lineup card management disaster, it's a case where an umpire puts a coach at a disadvantage by doing something against the rules.

Take my scenario that I mentioned before. Once again, the coach wants to enter #25 in #30's batting position (fifth batter in the inning), and you put that on the card. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double.

So the coach comes out and says, "Remember that I wanted to enter #25 in for #30, Blue? Let's forget that since #30's batting order slot hasn't come up yet, and I'll put #25 in for #15 at second base." You cannot use the substitution rules and tell the coach, "Sorry, but #25 officially subbed for #30, so she can't re-enter for anyone else." Why not? Because you weren't supposed to accept the change in the first place. You're using a rule you violated to put the coach into a bind.

I think the time you save accepting projected subs (which isn't that much time if you know how to keep a lineup card and announce subs) isn't worth the headache you could get into. But that's just me. YMMV