Projected Sub...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If Im following this correctly, you dont have anything to record and there has been no substitutions. The DP can play defense for anyone, except the flex and it is not a substitution. The only times the coach really needs to inform you of the DP playing a defensive position is when they are the pitcher or catcher for courtesy runner purposes, and if they do play defense for the flex, because then you do have a substitution.

No, you don't have to record anything when the DP goes into play defense. That's not the substitution[*]. The substitution is Brown for Smith. I was trying to clarify for Manny et al (not sure which camp you are in) that you don't have to be in the game at the moment to be playing by illustrating it on defense. In this case, Smith was going to sit on the bench until her team recorded three outs and came up to bat. That was her position. Now, Brown is going to do that. It's not a projected substitution, it's an immediate substitution but the player isn't doing anything right now.
[*] From someone in our association, I got this phrasing, there are a lot of things you can do with your DP/Flex Coach, and I need to know about all but one of them. Feel free to just bring them all to me.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Oh, I get it now. Where it says in NFHS 3-3-3, "Projected substitutions are not permitted," I'm supposed to interpret that as meaning, "DEFENSIVE projected substitutions are not permitted."

And where it says in ASA 4-6-A, "The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters," it really means, "The manager or team representative of the team making the DEFENSIVE substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the DEFENSIVE substitute enters."

I was just asking permission to quote your example when teaching.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If Im following this correctly, you dont have anything to record and there has been no substitutions. The DP can play defense for anyone, except the flex and it is not a substitution. The only times the coach really needs to inform you of the DP playing a defensive position is when they are the pitcher or catcher for courtesy runner purposes, and if they do play defense for the flex, because then you do have a substitution.

Are you saying you do not note this on your lineup? Tracking defensive positions is required in NCAA and in all codes it is wise to record the player going to the bench to avoid DP identity confusion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Oh, I get it now. Where it says in NFHS 3-3-3, "Projected substitutions are not permitted," I'm supposed to interpret that as meaning, "DEFENSIVE projected substitutions are not permitted."

And where it says in ASA 4-6-A, "The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters," it really means, "The manager or team representative of the team making the DEFENSIVE substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the DEFENSIVE substitute enters."

Manny, you are overthinking, or trying to outthink this thing. FORGET, offense, defense or picket fence, just think of it as one player going in for another.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Are you saying you do not note this on your lineup? Tracking defensive positions is required in NCAA and in all codes it is wise to record the player going to the bench to avoid DP identity confusion.

I dont do college ball so have no need to record position changes. I do make note of pitching and catching position changes for courtesy runner eligibility. I also make note of if the DP is playing defense for the pitcher or catcher. Other than that, dont need to know where they are playing defense and dont record it. If there is a question its not that hard to figure out. Call time, ask where the DP is, ask where the flex is. If we dont have a flex on the field, we have a problem.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There is no ruleset that requires the manager at this point to decide whether #3 will be able to play when either her at bat comes around or they head back out to defense.

What rule in the NCAA code do you think tells you to require a substitution right then and there, after an apparent injury but before that player is required to DO anything?

The manager is not required to give you all the changes at once. He can have each batter report in, or he can give them all to you at once. His choice, not ours.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

The manager is not required to give you all the changes at once. He can have each batter report in, or he can give them all to you at once. His choice, not ours.

The only time a substitution would be required immediately is if an event caused a whole in the line-up, as in an ejection, an injury forcing the removal of a player from the game, someone's mother calling their child home, etc. IOW, when it is obvious the player presently in the line-up can no longer continue.

And before it is raised, yes, there are circumstances where a shorthanded rule permits a team to continue without a sub if one is not available.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There is no ruleset that requires the manager at this point to decide whether #3 will be able to play when either her at bat comes around or they head back out to defense.

What rule in the NCAA code do you think tells you to require a substitution right then and there, after an apparent injury but before that player is required to DO anything?

NCAA 8.1

The language is "fielding a team" and, just like many rules, is rather ambiguous. In both scenarios, if there are two outs, then the rule is rather clear, game over. However, in the specific case of an injury with out #3, the coach does have a slight option. As per the interpretations on Arbiter, the coach does not have to make the sub right away and can leave the player in the line up. She can also take her position in the batter's box (which is a requirement) while not expecting to even swing at a pitch. Of course, this would happen under very limited circumstances, such as that team needing just a few runs to end the game.

I think the ambiguity comes in if the player leaves the park for medical treatment. She might be due up 7th or 8th in the inning, but can we say the team is "fielding" the required amount of players? I don't know the answer to that, but if I were the other coach, I would protest.

Of course, this doesn't apply to ASA of NFHS, as both allow for short handed play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

The manager is not required to give you all the changes at once. He can have each batter report in, or he can give them all to you at once. His choice, not ours.

Why did you quote my post on this. Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

NCAA 8.1

The language is "fielding a team" and, just like many rules, is rather ambiguous. In both scenarios, if there are two outs, then the rule is rather clear, game over. However, in the specific case of an injury with out #3, the coach does have a slight option. As per the interpretations on Arbiter, the coach does not have to make the sub right away and can leave the player in the line up. She can also take her position in the batter's box (which is a requirement) while not expecting to even swing at a pitch. Of course, this would happen under very limited circumstances, such as that team needing just a few runs to end the game.

I think the ambiguity comes in if the player leaves the park for medical treatment. She might be due up 7th or 8th in the inning, but can we say the team is "fielding" the required amount of players? I don't know the answer to that, but if I were the other coach, I would protest.

Of course, this doesn't apply to ASA of NFHS, as both allow for short handed play.

Generally, in an NCAA game, a player could "leave" via the back of the dugout for a variety of purposes - she's not unable to play until she's actually unable to perform her duties (not there to take the field, or take her spot in the batter's box). I've never even heard of someone taking this rule to mean that if a coach protested that the 7th batter happened to not be in the dugout, that we must hunt them down to figure out if they were too injured to bat (in 20 minutes when she comes up) or if they are simply getting some gatorade. To say that a player injured during the 3rd out of an inning must somehow prove she's able to continue RIGHT THEN, or demand a sub RIGHT THEN, is more ludicrous than anything I've read on this thread. The poster that posted that is simply flat wrong.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Generally, in an NCAA game, a player could "leave" via the back of the dugout for a variety of purposes - she's not unable to play until she's actually unable to perform her duties (not there to take the field, or take her spot in the batter's box). I've never even heard of someone taking this rule to mean that if a coach protested that the 7th batter happened to not be in the dugout, that we must hunt them down to figure out if they were too injured to bat (in 20 minutes when she comes up) or if they are simply getting some gatorade. To say that a player injured during the 3rd out of an inning must somehow prove she's able to continue RIGHT THEN, or demand a sub RIGHT THEN, is more ludicrous than anything I've read on this thread. The poster that posted that is simply flat wrong.

Please re-read what I wrote. You are taking this to an entirely different direction. It isn't about monitoring who is in the dugout and who isn't. It is about a player becoming injured. Currently, there in an interpretation that the coach does not need to make an immediate substitution for an injury, and the injured player can perform her duties to continue the game. That is not my point.

I SPECULATED about a player leaving the park to get medical attention, which would be noticed. I've had three players leave due to injury in the last 3 years, and all were noticed. Again, I SPECULATED as to the interpretation of "fielding a team" in rule 8.1. If I were the umpire, I'm continuing the game until that player needs to do something, like hit or play the field. If I were the opposing coach, I would file a protest under 8.1 for an interpretation. I don't know if it is a valid protest, but that's why there are interpretation.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Why did you quote my post on this. Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

I misread your post, sorry.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I was just asking permission to quote your example when teaching.

My apologies. I didn't read it that way.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

The manager is not required to give you all the changes at once. He can have each batter report in, or he can give them all to you at once. His choice, not ours.

And it is appreciated by many of us as this goes a long way to speeding up a game, or at least to avoid slowing it down.