Projected Sub...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe it is me, but three pages on this subject is a little disturbing.

Well ... it was 3 pages the last time you and AtlSteve argued about this (2010).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Whomever told you accepting multiple substitutions on offense is projeected, that you can only accept changes on the current batter, is completely wrong.

You quote a bunch of non ASA rules after this... which are irrelevant. I can quote other orgs of baseball and softball that say the opposite - which are equally as irrelevant.

You can tell us here, on the internet where everything is true, that accepting multiple substitutions on offense should be allowed... but until ASA bothers defining "projected substitutions", or gets specific about when substitutions are official - it's just words.

I know that you, and Mike, are generally in the room when this stuff is discussed. So I believe you if you say that is the intent of ASA --- but given that this is different from many other rulesets (both BB and SB), it needs to be codified.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

That's a perfect example of a projected substitution.

So is "15 will bat for 44 when she comes up", imho.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The umpire's response to the coach should be: "Coach, give me the change when it happens."



WHEN the change is given to you.

A substitution takes place when it is provided to the umpire, not when a particular scenario occurs or any other particular point in the game arrives. This way, when the coach changes his/her mind because the anticipated scenario did not occur, there is no excuse of forgetting to rectify the situation.

Like in football where they inform the official that as xx:xx left on the clock, they are going to request a time out. However, they must still inform the official of the request AT THE TIME it occurs.

Coach wants to give you a heads up on a possible change, that is fine, but that is not the change.

This is COMPLETELY at odds with the notion you and Atl are saying about making a substitution for the 5th batter in the lineup.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So is "15 will bat for 44 when she comes up", imho.

I would agree. However, "15 for 44" is NOT.

[CecilOne]

It is obvious to me that any reported substitution is taken as reported, except for non-immediate-possibility changes. Substitutions are a function of the lineup, not physical action or presence.

Those saying that a sub has to physically perform when reported are wrong.
Thank you, IM, AUS, & Patrick for doing the typing of the correct approach.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is COMPLETELY at odds with the notion you and Atl are saying about making a substitution for the 5th batter in the lineup.

How so?

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by atlumpsteve

yeah, i'm having the same thought.

People, a coach can make a substitution, and multiple substitutions, at any time on both defense and offense. When the change is accepted (and fully processed, recorded, and announced), the substitution has happened. If the coach chooses to replace all 9 players on offense at one time, you accept 9 substitutions. Now. They are entered now. If the coach wants to change that later, that is a re-entry, or another substitution. Then; and he has to live with the substitutions previously made. The player being replaced is replaced when reported and recorded, and it has nothing to do with which player is at bat.

Projected in asa, nfhs, and ncaa means 25 for 30, and i will re-enter 30 on defense at the end of the inning. You accept 25 for 30, and you tell the coach he must re-enter 30 when 30 is being re-entered, not now. If coach tells you 25 for 30, 18 for 23, and 5 for 12, you make three substitutions; now. You do not have the right to refuse to allow a coach to make a legal substitution now, even if the coach may later regret it. That part is his problem.

Whomever told you accepting multiple substitutions on offense is projeected, that you can only accept changes on the current batter, is completely wrong. The ncaa rule saying "8.5.1.1. any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead." nfhs 3-3-2 also states "a substitute may replace any player when the ball is dead or time has been called." asa rs#51 adds "a substitute is considered in the game when reported to the plate umpire"; only unreported subs need to actually participate to be considered officially in the game.

+1000

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

People, a coach can make a substitution, and multiple substitutions, at any time on both defense and offense. When the change is accepted (and fully processed, recorded, and announced), the substitution has happened. If the coach chooses to replace all 9 players on offense at one time, you accept 9 substitutions. Now. They are entered now. If the coach wants to change that later, that is a re-entry, or another substitution. Then; and he has to live with the substitutions previously made. The player being replaced is replaced when reported and recorded, and it has NOTHING to do with which player is at bat.

Projected in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA means 25 for 30, and I will re-enter 30 on defense at the end of the inning. You accept 25 for 30, and you tell the coach he must re-enter 30 when 30 is being re-entered, not now. If coach tells you 25 for 30, 18 for 23, and 5 for 12, you make three substitutions; now. You do not have the right to refuse to allow a coach to make a legal substitution now, even if the coach may later regret it. That part is his problem.

Whomever told you accepting multiple substitutions on offense is projeected, that you can only accept changes on the current batter, is completely wrong. The NCAA rule saying "8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead." NFHS 3-3-2 also states "A substitute may replace any player when the ball is dead or time has been called." ASA RS#51 adds "A substitute is considered in the game when reported to the plate umpire"; only unreported subs need to actually participate to be considered officially in the game.

Steve, I'm teaching ASA 4 next week, may I copy & distribute this, along with

Manny, this one as a projected:
"Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

ASA RS#51 adds "A substitute is considered in the game when reported to the plate umpire"; only unreported subs need to actually participate to be considered officially in the game.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You quote a bunch of non ASA rules after this... which are irrelevant. I can quote other orgs of baseball and softball that say the opposite - which are equally as irrelevant.

You can tell us here, on the internet where everything is true, that accepting multiple substitutions on offense should be allowed... but until ASA bothers defining "projected substitutions", or gets specific about when substitutions are official - it's just words.

Which part of my quote above is non ASA, nonspecific or unclear? I could also add 4-6.B; "A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the plate umpire." But you should have known that.

A reported sub is in the game when reported; even if that batting position isn't currently up. That isn't projected; the change is made now. An unreported sub is in the game when they actually participate.

Originally Posted by Manny A

Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

I have to take that substitution and announce it to the opposing coach?

To respond accurately AND completely to that you coach, you need to say "Coach, if I accept that change as reported now, you must enter that player now, and #5 has been removed; now. If that is your intent, I can accept that change. However, if you want #5 to stay in the game until #44 comes up, then you need to hold this change and report it when you want that to happen."

That is obviously different from reporting an offensive change, where I am making the change now for a position in my batting order, which can and must be executed when reported. The coach has every right to make that change NOW, and you have no basis to say he has to report it again later.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If all this happens when I'm umpiring, then I'm only taking the sub when it happens, and I'm telling him so. I am not taking 25 for 26 at that moment - and coach will know that.

If I were that coach, I would make a point of making sure others witnessed me reporting it when I choose to, and would absolutely refuse to re-report it to you later. And then absolutely defy you to consider it an unreported sub. You lose that protest; the rule says that player is in the game when I report it to you. You can only refuse to accept illegal substitutions; and this isn't. There is absolute rules support for my position (and have quoted ASA, NFHS, and NCAA softball cites), and absolutely none for yours.

You can choose to say "projected" isn't defined; but you cannot ignore what IS specifically stated.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Steve, I'm teaching ASA 4 next week, may I copy & distribute this, along with

Manny, this one as a projected:
"Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

As far as I am concerned, anything I type and post is freely available to anyone that reads it. There is, to my knowledge, no ownership of open messageboard posts; if there is in some jurisdiction, I consider and openly release anything I post as public domain/freeware/whatever.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If all this happens when I'm umpiring, then I'm only taking the sub when it happens, and I'm telling him so. I am not taking 25 for 26 at that moment - and coach will know that.

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So is "15 will bat for 44 when she comes up", imho.

I disagree, 15 for 44 is not projected, it is available right now. Now say then 44 will reenter is projected.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

No it doesn't.

You take a sub when it happens. If the try to project, you tell them to come back with it when they want it to occur.

It is real simple. If you give me a change, I stop and make that change immediately. I don't wave or smile or nod, I stop the game, take my line-up card and make the change then and there. No multiple scenarios, what ifs or conditions. If you tell me 15 for 44, that change is effective the moment I write it down.

Why? Because if there is any reason for the game to stop at that point or I, as the plate umpire, cannot continue, that line-up card IS the official line up for both teams. There is no, "but I told him....." or "that isn't what I really wanted to do.." bull****. A UIC should be able to come to the field at any time during the game, take your line-up card and compare them to the scorebook and they should be identical.

That will not happen if the umpire's line-up card is not current and it cannot be current if the umpire accepts changes that have no yet taken place. Want to not see Sunday in a NC, do not have a current line-up card when there is a BOO protest.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No it doesn't.

.

I'm confused, will re-read later.