Projected subs

[SC Ump]

Coach says, I've got #27 pinch hitting for for #3 , but #3 will re-enter on defense. I think we all respond with something like, "The rules state you can't project a sub, so you have to let me know when #3 re-enters."

However, when the coach who will next be on offense comes to you and says, "I've got #27 for #3 as the second batter this inning and #28 for #4 as the third batter," how many of you accept this. For those of you that do accept this, have you ever had a coach come back to you and say, "Nevermind, I don't want to put #28 in" and if so what do you do?

I asked because I do not accept this type of projected sub from the offensive coach in between innings; I have them give the sub as each new batter enters. I did allow this above situation recently, but only because it was a pre-season, scrimmage, "mercy rule" game. The coach started a conversation, "Can you believe I had an umpire last year that made me tell him as each substitute entered?" I responded to him that this is the rule and I would require the same if it were a 'real' game instead of a scrimmage.

When the other coach then did the same in the next half inning, I took the changes but mentioned the rule to him. His response was the stereotypical, "I've never heard of that and have been doing it for ____ years."

I'm just trying to make sure I'm doing consistently with most... or at least with those on this board who are doing the extra to be good officials. Am I the only one that requires offensive batters, including the first three, to report as they enter?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

Coach says, I've got #27 pinch hitting for for #3 , but #3 will re-enter on defense. I think we all respond with something like, "The rules state you can't project a sub, so you have to let me know when #3 re-enters."

However, when the coach who will next be on offense comes to you and says, "I've got #27 for #3 as the second batter this inning and #28 for #4 as the third batter," how many of you accept this. For those of you that do accept this, have you ever had a coach come back to you and say, "Nevermind, I don't want to put #28 in" and if so what do you do?

I asked because I do not accept this type of projected sub from the offensive coach in between innings; I have them give the sub as each new batter enters. I did allow this above situation recently, but only because it was a pre-season, scrimmage, "mercy rule" game. The coach started a conversation, "Can you believe I had an umpire last year that made me tell him as each substitute entered?" I responded to him that this is the rule and I would require the same if it were a 'real' game instead of a scrimmage.

When the other coach then did the same in the next half inning, I took the changes but mentioned the rule to him. His response was the stereotypical, "I've never heard of that and have been doing it for ____ years."

I'm just trying to make sure I'm doing consistently with most... or at least with those on this board who are doing the extra to be good officials. Am I the only one that requires offensive batters, including the first three, to report as they enter?

As an umpire, you accept a change when it happens. If you choose to accept the coach's changes in advance, you are asking for trouble. Understand, when I say "advance", I mean as you noted in your first paragraph when it is two changes involving the same player.

Otherwise, the coach can change his/her lineup whenever they please. But once you accept the change, it is a done deal. If the coach changes their mind, tough.

[AtlUmpSteve]

So your position is that coaches can make multiple defensive changes at the same time, but not multiple offensive changes at the same time? How do you come to that conclusion?

If a coach makes 2 or more changes at the same time, you accept all the changes; and they are official once you accept and report them to the opposing team. The prohibition against projecting changes is against changes that cannot be made at that time; multiple changes can be made at any time, just not one that will happen in the future. The changes you are describing are effective now, not future projections, no matter when the batter actually comes up.

What do you do if the coach changes his mind? You say, "Coach, you have made that change, and it is official. It cannot be undone. Are you asking to reenter the starter now?"

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So your position is that coaches can make multiple defensive changes at the same time, but not multiple offensive changes at the same time? How do you come to that conclusion?

If a coach makes 2 or more changes at the same time, you accept all the changes; and they are official once you accept and report them to the opposing team. The prohibition against projecting changes is against changes that cannot be made at that time; multiple changes can be made at any time, just not one that will happen in the future. The changes you are describing are effective now, not future projections, no matter when the batter actually comes up.

What do you do if the coach changes his mind? You say, "Coach, you have made that change, and it is official. It cannot be undone. Are you asking to reenter the starter now?"

I agree with Steve and Mike on this one. If a coach wants to change their entire line-up between innings, that's fine by me. Heck, I even prefer they let me know between innings, as it keeps the game moving.

There's a difference between accepting multiple (but separate) changes in the line-up and accepting multiple changes to one spot in the line-up. The latter is not acceptable, and if the coach tries to do this, I let them know that they are to notify me a second time when the player is back in the game. I had a coach try this at my National last year, and I told him to let me know when the player is actually re-entered. He forgot to do so, and he put the player back on defense at the next half inning, creating an unreported substitute situation.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

However, when the coach who will next be on offense comes to you and says, "I've got #27 for #3 as the second batter this inning and #28 for #4 as the third batter," how many of you accept this.

Certainly I'll accept this. Coach is changing his lineup while on offense. He has the right to change out all nine batters if he wants. Once the changes are accepted, recorded, and reported to the other team, the subs are in the line-up.

Am I the only one that requires offensive batters, including the first three, to report as they enter?

Probably not, but it seems like OOO to me.

[Steve M]

I'll suggest to the coach that it's better if they tell me when the change happens, so that they might change their mind with no consequences. But, if the coach sez no, I want to make these changes, I'll take them.

[Andy]

I facilitated a clinic this year for HS umpires on substitutions.

I taught that you should only accept the changes as they happen, much like SC Ump describes. Keeps you out of trouble in case a coach changes his/her mind between now and then. Of course, the trouble is caused by the coach, but you still have to deal with it.

I may have to re-think this position based on this thread. I think that accepting the change in advance is probably OK with a mention to the coach that once he gives me the change it's official and if he changes his/her mind later, it's another change.

On a related side note - After a coach has subbed for a batter or runner in the offensive half of the inning, how many of you will ask if he intends to re-enter the subbed out player as the teams are changing from offense to defense?

[bbsbvb83]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

However, when the coach who will next be on offense comes to you and says, "I've got #27 for #3 as the second batter this inning and #28 for #4 as the third batter," how many of you accept this.

I accept it. In my opinion, this is not a projected substitution. Some people on the baseball forum vehemently disagreed with me, however, on a similar situation. For what it is worth, I believe the rule is the same regarding projected subs for both sports. Both books say something like, "Projected substitutions are not allowed." Neither sport's rules actually define projected substitution. Here is the link to the baseball situation: Fed Sub Situation

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Steve M

I'll suggest to the coach that it's better if they tell me when the change happens, so that they might change their mind with no consequences. But, if the coach sez no, I want to make these changes, I'll take them.

And, for what it's worth (probably nothing), I prefer the coach give me all the changes at once. If the intended changes are situational, then of course the coach should wait. But if the coach's intentions are to enter three subs this inning, no matter what happens, then I prefer the one stoppage to 1) verify and repeat what I have been told, 2) enter it on my lineup card, 3) report the subs to the opposing team, 4) report to the official scorer when there is one, 5) mark on my lineup card that I have reported the changes, and 6) restart the game.

If this can be done once, why do it three times??

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

On a related side note - After a coach has subbed for a batter or runner in the offensive half of the inning, how many of you will ask if he intends to re-enter the subbed out player as the teams are changing from offense to defense?

I will make myself available to make reporting the re-entry as easy as possible. I generally will attempt to make eye contact with the head coach. But if the coach doesn't pick up, it is giving him/her an unfair advantage to remind them. There is a penalty that the opposing team is entitled to when one team doesn't report a re-entry; it just isn't neutral to help one team avoid what the other team is entitled to.

I had that just this week. A college coach made several substitutions, both batters and runners in a half inng (incidently, one was two changes made at the same time!!), but only reported she re-entered two of the three starters that inning. But she re-entered all three. The opposing coach waited; and protested at the most advantageous time. It erased a run!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

I think a lot of this has to do with the term "projected" changes.

A change is a change. If a coach comes to the umpire and makes a change, it takes effect immediately.

If the coach makes a statement along the lines of "in the next inning", or as in the OP (two changes involving the same player), to me, that is a projected change as they are asking for something to take effect in the future.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think a lot of this has to do with the term "projected" changes.

First - - - Very good input from all on this whole thread. I do plan on changing the way I do this on offense and I will start accepting these multiple offensive changes.

The reason I started this was exactly that Mike mentions here about what "projected" means. I do not do ASA now, but when I first started ASA was all I did. My first year (1989), I attended a clinic facilitated by an ASA natioanal staff member. He noted that an offensive batter did not enter the game until they came up to bat and thus future batters were "projected". His specific example is what would you do if you accepted the third batter as a sub and then something happened to the batter or the coach changed their mind before they came up to bat; then you'd have a player subbed-in, then subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game.

After reading these responses and thinking a little more, I agree I was OOO a bit. Example: what if a sub is announced and then trips and busts his lip coming out of the dugout. You would still have a player subbed-in and subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game. (In this example with my old definition, I would have been allowing the couch to "project" the sub as much as 15 seconds in advance of when the sub actually came up. - - - I say in jest.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

He noted that an offensive batter did not enter the game until they came up to bat

Speaking ASA

This statement is true...well, almost as the player must have a pitch thrown or a play made....as it pertains to the rules involving unreported subs.

Another thing is the reference to batter, fielder, offense and defense. I think the easiest way to approach this subject is to remember when the coach comes to you with a substitution or re-entry, it isn't the the batter or fielder being changed. The change is with the the line-up. What the coach does with that line-up is subject to other rules and restrictions.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

First - - - Very good input from all on this whole thread. I do plan on changing the way I do this on offense and I will start accepting these multiple offensive changes.

The reason I started this was exactly that Mike mentions here about what "projected" means. I do not do ASA now, but when I first started ASA was all I did. My first year (1989), I attended a clinic facilitated by an ASA natioanal staff member. He noted that an offensive batter did not enter the game until they came up to bat and thus future batters were "projected". His specific example is what would you do if you accepted the third batter as a sub and then something happened to the batter or the coach changed their mind before they came up to bat; then you'd have a player subbed-in, then subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game.

After reading these responses and thinking a little more, I agree I was OOO a bit. Example: what if a sub is announced and then trips and busts his lip coming out of the dugout. You would still have a player subbed-in and subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game. (In this example with my old definition, I would have been allowing the couch to "project" the sub as much as 15 seconds in advance of when the sub actually came up. - - - I say in jest.)

Once a sub has been reported to the game umpire they are officially in the game. Therefore, if a coach reports that the first 3 batters are changing, they are official once reported and are not "projected subs".

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by rwest

Once a sub has been reported to the game umpire they are officially in the game. Therefore, if a coach reports that the first 3 batters are changing, they are official once reported and are not "projected subs".

Almost true. However, the umpire must accept that reporting before the sub is officially in the game.

Otherwise, there would be no way for the umpire to refuse an illegal substitution, as we are expected to as preventative officiating.