Projected Sub...

[Chess Ref]

At our HS meeting last night the question came up about projected subs.

The example used is as follows, Team batting wants to sub #25 in for #30.

#30 isn't due to bat until 5th in the inning. We had a blue make a somewhat reasonable argument that we shouldn't accept that substitution until it was #30's turn at bat. His reasoning was that at that point it's a projected sub.

I looked through the rule book and couldn't find anything to clarify.

Any thoughts?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Do you allow them to tell you that the sub they are entering now will be re-entered for before the re-entry actually occurs? I don't allow this mostly because I don't want to forget. I don't think you should do anything until the sub is actually entering the game.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I looked through the rule book and couldn't find anything to clarify.

Look at rule 3-3-3 on page 32 of this year's rule book:

"The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team's head coach. Projected substitutions are not permitted. If there is no announcement..."

The italicized portion is a new change to this year's book.

[Chess Ref]

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

I agree the coach stating the reentry would be a projected sub. The example you used seems to be an apple to oranges kind of deal.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

No. I would reach into my ball bag, pull out my lineup card, notice that he/she is trying to give me a projected substitute, and tell him/her, "Sorry, coach, but you can't give me a sub until the time she actually enters the game," and then put my lineup card back in my bag.

Here's the dilemma. Let's say you accept the substitution, and enter #25 in #30's batting position. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double, and the coach doesn't have anybody on the bench to bring in for #15.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

No. I would reach into my ball bag, pull out my lineup card, notice that he/she is trying to give me a projected substitute, and tell him/her, "Sorry, coach, but you can't give me a sub until the time she actually enters the game," and then put my lineup card back in my bag.

Here's the dilemma. Let's say you accept the substitution, and enter #25 in #30's batting position. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double, and the coach doesn't have anybody on the bench to bring in for #15.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

You are certainly within your rights to do that. I'm just telling you what I'd do (in a baseball game -- that's all I work). I remember the position and will pull the card out and report it when the player comes to the plate. Just saves a little time -- but I can get why others wouldn't want to do it.

[KJUmp]

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

It's not only a lineup card management disaster, it's a case where an umpire puts a coach at a disadvantage by doing something against the rules.

Take my scenario that I mentioned before. Once again, the coach wants to enter #25 in #30's batting position (fifth batter in the inning), and you put that on the card. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double.

So the coach comes out and says, "Remember that I wanted to enter #25 in for #30, Blue? Let's forget that since #30's batting order slot hasn't come up yet, and I'll put #25 in for #15 at second base." You cannot use the substitution rules and tell the coach, "Sorry, but #25 officially subbed for #30, so she can't re-enter for anyone else." Why not? Because you weren't supposed to accept the change in the first place. You're using a rule you violated to put the coach into a bind.

I think the time you save accepting projected subs (which isn't that much time if you know how to keep a lineup card and announce subs) isn't worth the headache you could get into. But that's just me. YMMV

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I guess I must be a little slow, or what am I missing here? I don't see the OP as a projected sub. As I read 3-3-3 the player is in the game as soon as the plate umpire records it on the lineup card and then they are required to report it to the other team. Now if there is no announcement (coach or player does not tell me) then they are in the game once one of a-e happens. Points a-e tells us when we can enforce the unreported sub rules, it is not a requirement for them to be in the game if they were reported. A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

ART. 3 . . . The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card
and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected
substitutions are not permitted. Should there be no announcement of substitutions,
a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner she has replaced.
b. a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate.
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder she has
replaced.
d. a batter takes her place in the batter's box.
e. and, in each of the above situations, when the ball is declared live by the
plate umpire.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Manny A

No.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

"Coach, #25 is already in the game."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

"Coach, #25 is already in the game."

By rule, she's not. Projected substitutes are not allowed.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

If they are in the field... yes. If they are batting, absolutely not - unless 30 is coming up to bat.

That said ... if the sitch is like the OP, I will notice she's 5th when he tells me. I won't notate it right then, but when the 5th batter comes up and it's 30 (and not 25), I'm not going to make him come back out and tell me again. It is at THIS point that I would inform the other team's coach (and usually the scorekeeper too).

If it turns out they only bat 3 or 4 that inning - I'll inform the coach that the substitution has actually not taken place yet and ask if he still wants it when they go on defense.