Ending Game

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

..I don’t know what “word” games to which you are referring. As I normally do, I cited the statements to which I am responding, but you seem to keep going back to the OP.

My responses up to that point were NFHS (as the OP requested), which words the abandonment rule slightly differently, hence, in the context of NFHS, word games.

However, since you want to talk only ASA, instead of counting angels on the head of a pin (missed base appeal, ruled out for abandonment), lets just assume R1 is ruled out for either of those - take your pick - where is the ASA rule, ruling, case play, or clinic notes that say you take the run off the board in the OP situation (BOB with bases loaded and 2 outs, walk-off situation)? You said you would cite the rule "if necessary." Well?

I have had to tip toe around the p**ing contest but this is what I've found so someone tell me is this correct or is there something else I am missing.

Dakota’s post is not quite the question that was posted. In Dakota’s post the runner made 2B and was tagged while off base. On page 70 in the NFHS case book 9.9.1 M.

In the last of the 7th. Inning, two outs. Score tied, bases loaded. B6 walks to force R1 home. B6 assumes the game is over fails to go to 1B and leaves the field. The ball is held at 1B. Ruling: B6 is out and the run does not score. (Rule 8.6.7 Exception b)

So B6 is out, run is nullified after the appeal?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I have had to tip toe around the p**ing contest but this is what I've found so someone tell me is this correct or is there something else I am missing.

Dakota’s post is not quite the question that was posted. In Dakota’s post the runner made 2B and was tagged while off base. On page 70 in the NFHS case book 9.9.1 M.

In the last of the 7th. Inning, two outs. Score tied, bases loaded. B6 walks to force R1 home. B6 assumes the game is over fails to go to 1B and leaves the field. The ball is held at 1B. Ruling: B6 is out and the run does not score. (Rule 8.6.7 Exception b)

So B6 is out, run is nullified after the appeal?

Yes - no run... but this is not the OP either. there is a separate specific rule telling us that a run can't score on a play where BR is put out before reaching first base for the third out... that is the rule that applies to your sitch.

The disagreement between Tom, Mike, and I is whether there is any rule that says that if R2 or R3 neglect to make it to the next base, the run is nullified. I don't believe there is - neither does Tom. Mike has alluded that there is, and is generally right - but he has not helped us find that rule.

I'm reading Rule 8.6.7 which in part says the batter-runner at 1B or any other runner forced because of the batter-runner. This is a force out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I'm reading Rule 8.6.7 which in part says the batter-runner at 1B or any other runner forced because of the batter-runner. This is a force out.

Read the whole rule (or post it). There is no force on R2 or R3. Can you throw the ball to 2nd or 3rd before they get there to get them out? No.

Part of that rule DOES say an appeal for a missed base on R2 or R3, if that base was a forced base, can nullify a run. ASA is similar but not identical. But therein lies the crux of the disagreement.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I'm reading Rule 8.6.7 which in part says the batter-runner at 1B or any other runner forced because of the batter-runner. This is a force out.

The runner is forced to advance, but it is not a force out since it is an awarded base. There is not force out situation at 2B in the OP situation. I can't see any rule that takes a run off the board due to a missed base appeal on an awarded base, or for an out due to abandoning an awarded base, on other than the BR or the runner who actually scored.

You may be correct but I'm being devil's advocate. In the case book 1B is also an awarded base that was failed be touched. would 2nd or 3rd be treated any differentially?

[CecilOne]

Aren't you glad we don't hear appeals as a group?

Of course, then there would be specific rule, a little easier.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

You may be correct but I'm being devil's advocate. In the case book 1B is also an awarded base that was failed be touched. would 2nd or 3rd be treated any differentially?

That is the crux of the discussion. Speaking NFHS, show me where R1 in the OP situation being ruled out negates the run:

NFHS 9-1-1

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the batter-runner before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out;
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the bases;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

You may be correct but I'm being devil's advocate. In the case book 1B is also an awarded base that was failed be touched. would 2nd or 3rd be treated any differentially?

Yes... the difference is this: "by the batter-runner before touching first base"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

My responses up to that point were NFHS (as the OP requested), which words the abandonment rule slightly differently, hence, in the context of NFHS, word games.

However, since you want to talk only ASA,

Again, go back and read all the words typed. I did not introduce ASA into the discussion.

instead of counting angels on the head of a pin (missed base appeal, ruled out for abandonment), lets just assume R1 is ruled out for either of those - take your pick - where is the ASA rule, ruling, case play, or clinic notes that say you take the run off the board in the OP situation (BOB with bases loaded and 2 outs, walk-off situation)? You said you would cite the rule "if necessary." Well?

Rule 1.Force out
Rule 8.3.I
Rule 8.7.G
Rule 5.5.B.1
UIC Clinic Guide Definitions - !.Appeals.I

[RadioBlue]

RULE 2
SECTION 24 FORCE PLAY
ART. 1 . . . A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner.

Okay. Can we all agree that a force play exists because of the BOB?

ART. 2 . . . For a given runner, a force play ends as soon as the runner touches the next base or a following runner is put out.

If R1 abandons their effort to run, can we agree this does not negate the force play? The force is still in effect. Note that the definition of a Force Play does not require that an out can be made at the base to which the runner is forced, just that the batter became a BR.

RULE 8
SECTION 1 THE BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER
ART. 1 . . . A batter becomes a batter-runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second and third and then home plate in the listed order when:
c. an intentional base on balls is awarded (S.P.), or a fourth ball is called by
the umpire.

The batter, by rule, has indeed become a batter-runner.

RULE 8
SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT
A runner is out when:
ART. 7 . . . The runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases in regular
or reverse order and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base, or any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner, this is a force out.

She failed to touch the base. It's an appeal play. It's a force out. It's the 3rd out. No runs can score. That seems pretty plain to me.

[MD Longhorn]

You've defined the crux of the argument...

"The runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases ". Intervening means BETWEEN. This rule is meant to allow the defense to appeal an out for a runner MISSING a base. The situation described is NOT missing a base. It is abandoning a base. We don't accurately have abandonment often --- but this is EXACTLY what that rule is written for.

If you think there's no difference, consider the same situation but without it being an end-of-game situation.

No outs. Bases loaded. Batter walks and advances. R1 scores. R2 runs off the field to the dugout. Do you stand around waiting for an appeal, or do you call this runner out? You call her out. If this was a missed base, or there was not a difference between abandoning a base and missing one, then you would have to wait for an appeal. But you don't. She's out right now, without appeal. She abandoned 3rd base.

Similarly, in the OP - the runner from 1st or 2nd, technically (although we often don't bother because it's irrelevant) these runners are out as soon as they leave the field. Appealing for missing a base is irrelevant - they are already out --- and their out was NOT the result of a missed base appeal, which is the rule you're using to say the run should be nullified. No such run nullification clause exists with the abandonment rule.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You've defined the crux of the argument...

"The runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases ". Intervening means BETWEEN. This rule is meant to allow the defense to appeal an out for a runner MISSING a base. The situation described is NOT missing a base. It is abandoning a base. We don't accurately have abandonment often --- but this is EXACTLY what that rule is written for.

If you think there's no difference, consider the same situation but without it being an end-of-game situation.

No outs. Bases loaded. Batter walks and advances. R1 scores. R2 runs off the field to the dugout. Do you stand around waiting for an appeal, or do you call this runner out? You call her out. If this was a missed base, or there was not a difference between abandoning a base and missing one, then you would have to wait for an appeal. But you don't. She's out right now, without appeal. She abandoned 3rd base.

Similarly, in the OP - the runner from 1st or 2nd, technically (although we often don't bother because it's irrelevant) these runners are out as soon as they leave the field. Appealing for missing a base is irrelevant - they are already out --- and their out was NOT the result of a missed base appeal, which is the rule you're using to say the run should be nullified. No such run nullification clause exists with the abandonment rule.

Mike:

I understand what you're saying. Part of the problem is I read the rule differently than you did. I read it as "fails to touch the intervening base" OR "fails to touch the bases or bases in regular or reverse order". I guess in my mind I was putting a comma where it didn't belong.

Another part of the problem is "abandoning" a base is not defined. Usually in a walk-off situation, the celebration happens on the field of play. Since R1 didn't leave the field of play, when is an umpire to judge she's abandoned her right to run the bases? We're told that a BR on a dropped-third hasn't abandoned her right to attempt to advance to 1B until she's in the dugout. Does that same thing apply here?

I really do understand where you're coming from.

To turn your argument around, if the defense appeals to you prior to you having an opportunity to call her out for abandoning, would you allow the appeal? Or, are you saying there's nothing to appeal because a base hasn't been "missed"? (I think I know your answer.) ;-)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

We're told that a BR on a dropped-third hasn't abandoned her right to attempt to advance to 1B until she's in the dugout. Does that same thing apply here?

Yes

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

To turn your argument around, if the defense appeals to you prior to you having an opportunity to call her out for abandoning, would you allow the appeal? Or, are you saying there's nothing to appeal because a base hasn't been "missed"? (I think I know your answer.) ;-)

There's nothing to appeal unless the BR went past the supposedly missed base. If we have abandonment, we have it when it happens, no appeal necessary.