Ending Game

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

My responses up to that point were NFHS (as the OP requested), which words the abandonment rule slightly differently, hence, in the context of NFHS, word games.

However, since you want to talk only ASA,

Again, go back and read all the words typed. I did not introduce ASA into the discussion.

instead of counting angels on the head of a pin (missed base appeal, ruled out for abandonment), lets just assume R1 is ruled out for either of those - take your pick - where is the ASA rule, ruling, case play, or clinic notes that say you take the run off the board in the OP situation (BOB with bases loaded and 2 outs, walk-off situation)? You said you would cite the rule "if necessary." Well?

Rule 1.Force out
Rule 8.3.I
Rule 8.7.G
Rule 5.5.B.1
UIC Clinic Guide Definitions - !.Appeals.I

[RadioBlue]

RULE 2
SECTION 24 FORCE PLAY
ART. 1 . . . A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner.

Okay. Can we all agree that a force play exists because of the BOB?

ART. 2 . . . For a given runner, a force play ends as soon as the runner touches the next base or a following runner is put out.

If R1 abandons their effort to run, can we agree this does not negate the force play? The force is still in effect. Note that the definition of a Force Play does not require that an out can be made at the base to which the runner is forced, just that the batter became a BR.

RULE 8
SECTION 1 THE BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER
ART. 1 . . . A batter becomes a batter-runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second and third and then home plate in the listed order when:
c. an intentional base on balls is awarded (S.P.), or a fourth ball is called by
the umpire.

The batter, by rule, has indeed become a batter-runner.

RULE 8
SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT
A runner is out when:
ART. 7 . . . The runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases in regular
or reverse order and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base, or any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner, this is a force out.

She failed to touch the base. It's an appeal play. It's a force out. It's the 3rd out. No runs can score. That seems pretty plain to me.

[MD Longhorn]

You've defined the crux of the argument...

"The runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases ". Intervening means BETWEEN. This rule is meant to allow the defense to appeal an out for a runner MISSING a base. The situation described is NOT missing a base. It is abandoning a base. We don't accurately have abandonment often --- but this is EXACTLY what that rule is written for.

If you think there's no difference, consider the same situation but without it being an end-of-game situation.

No outs. Bases loaded. Batter walks and advances. R1 scores. R2 runs off the field to the dugout. Do you stand around waiting for an appeal, or do you call this runner out? You call her out. If this was a missed base, or there was not a difference between abandoning a base and missing one, then you would have to wait for an appeal. But you don't. She's out right now, without appeal. She abandoned 3rd base.

Similarly, in the OP - the runner from 1st or 2nd, technically (although we often don't bother because it's irrelevant) these runners are out as soon as they leave the field. Appealing for missing a base is irrelevant - they are already out --- and their out was NOT the result of a missed base appeal, which is the rule you're using to say the run should be nullified. No such run nullification clause exists with the abandonment rule.

Page 70 of the 2010 NFHS case book 9-9-1 Situation I:
R1 is on third and R2 is on first with two outs. When B5 receives ball four. An overthrow at third permits R1 to reach home. In advancing (a) R2 fails to touch second or (b) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base.

Ruling: If the defense properly appeals. the umpire will declare in (a) R2 out for missing second base. and in (b) B5 out for missing first base. In either case the run by R1 will not count since the third out of the inning was the result of a force play (8-6-7 Penalty, 9-191 Exception d, 2-1)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

The runner didn't abandon the base, the runner never touched the base. You can't abandon a base you never occupied.

Not sure why you posted this - it's a completely different scenario in that the runner MISSES a base on his way somewhere else. As stated numerous times, missing a base and abandonment are two different things.

I would like to know why you have decided you can't abandon a base you never occupied. Read that rule again (post if you like) - it specifically says abandons his attempt to advance or something like that - you don't have to abandon a specific base, nor does it mention whether you can or can't abandon a base you never occupied.

Besides - NFHS has a clear caseplay EXACTLY like the OP in which the outs on R2 or R3 DO NOT nullify the run. The discussion has evolved into an ASA question because ASA does not have that caseplay. The rules, however, end up being the same.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You've defined the crux of the argument...

"The runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases ". Intervening means BETWEEN. This rule is meant to allow the defense to appeal an out for a runner MISSING a base. The situation described is NOT missing a base. It is abandoning a base. We don't accurately have abandonment often --- but this is EXACTLY what that rule is written for.

If you think there's no difference, consider the same situation but without it being an end-of-game situation.

No outs. Bases loaded. Batter walks and advances. R1 scores. R2 runs off the field to the dugout. Do you stand around waiting for an appeal, or do you call this runner out? You call her out. If this was a missed base, or there was not a difference between abandoning a base and missing one, then you would have to wait for an appeal. But you don't. She's out right now, without appeal. She abandoned 3rd base.

Similarly, in the OP - the runner from 1st or 2nd, technically (although we often don't bother because it's irrelevant) these runners are out as soon as they leave the field. Appealing for missing a base is irrelevant - they are already out --- and their out was NOT the result of a missed base appeal, which is the rule you're using to say the run should be nullified. No such run nullification clause exists with the abandonment rule.

Mike:

I understand what you're saying. Part of the problem is I read the rule differently than you did. I read it as "fails to touch the intervening base" OR "fails to touch the bases or bases in regular or reverse order". I guess in my mind I was putting a comma where it didn't belong.

Another part of the problem is "abandoning" a base is not defined. Usually in a walk-off situation, the celebration happens on the field of play. Since R1 didn't leave the field of play, when is an umpire to judge she's abandoned her right to run the bases? We're told that a BR on a dropped-third hasn't abandoned her right to attempt to advance to 1B until she's in the dugout. Does that same thing apply here?

I really do understand where you're coming from.

To turn your argument around, if the defense appeals to you prior to you having an opportunity to call her out for abandoning, would you allow the appeal? Or, are you saying there's nothing to appeal because a base hasn't been "missed"? (I think I know your answer.) ;-)

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not sure why you posted this - it's a completely different scenario in that the runner MISSES a base on his way somewhere else. As stated numerous times, missing a base and abandonment are two different things.

I would like to know why you have decided you can't abandon a base you never occupied. Read that rule again (post if you like) - it specifically says abandons his attempt to advance or something like that - you don't have to abandon a specific base, nor does it mention whether you can or can't abandon a base you never occupied.

Besides - NFHS has a clear caseplay EXACTLY like the OP in which the outs on R2 or R3 DO NOT nullify the run. The discussion has evolved into an ASA question because ASA does not have that caseplay. The rules, however, end up being the same.

Sorry, after reading your post I understand where you are coming from. I still don't completely agree, but I see you point. I removed the quote you were referring too.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

We're told that a BR on a dropped-third hasn't abandoned her right to attempt to advance to 1B until she's in the dugout. Does that same thing apply here?

Yes

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

To turn your argument around, if the defense appeals to you prior to you having an opportunity to call her out for abandoning, would you allow the appeal? Or, are you saying there's nothing to appeal because a base hasn't been "missed"? (I think I know your answer.) ;-)

There's nothing to appeal unless the BR went past the supposedly missed base. If we have abandonment, we have it when it happens, no appeal necessary.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Neither case ruling on 8-6-22 talks about abandoning "a base". The first says the runner is out for "giving up" and the second says the runner is out for "abandoning her effort to run the bases." (Case plays 8.6.22 A and B). In this situation, runner is "abandoning her effort to run the bases".

Since the BOB is a base award to all of the runners, I'm not 100% convinced R3's failure to advance would disallow the run anyway. This is not a force, because the runner is not in jeopardy. What, then, would be the basis for disallowing the run even if you called R3 out?

I disagree. This IS a force play because the runner is forced to advance because of the batter becoming a batter-runner. Agreed, there's no option for a force OUT, but this is by definintion a FORCE PLAY.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yes

There's nothing to appeal unless the BR went past the supposedly missed base. If we have abandonment, we have it when it happens, no appeal necessary.

Then ... at what point do we judge she's abandoned? If the celebration takes place on the playing field and she never enters the team area or leaves the field ... at what moment has she abandoned??

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Then ... at what point do we judge she's abandoned? If the celebration takes place on the playing field and she never enters the team area or leaves the field ... at what moment has she abandoned??

Ah... misunderstood the question. I would say that there is a reason "abandonment" is not precisely defined. I think the umpire would be the sole judge of when THIS runner has abandoned her efforts to run the bases, and would personally make that decision when she's joining the celebration and clearly no longer trying to advance. And again ... if we're talking about anyone but BR or R1 - it doesn't really matter as long as you don't have a quick trigger finger on it and somehow have R2 or R3 abandoning before R1 scores.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Ah... misunderstood the question. I would say that there is a reason "abandonment" is not precisely defined. I think the umpire would be the sole judge of when THIS runner has abandoned her efforts to run the bases, and would personally make that decision when she's joining the celebration and clearly no longer trying to advance. And again ... if we're talking about anyone but BR or R1 - it doesn't really matter as long as you don't have a quick trigger finger on it and somehow have R2 or R3 abandoning before R1 scores.

Thanks, Mike. This has certainly been an interesting thread.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

...The runner didn't abandon the base, the runner never touched the base. You can't abandon a base you never occupied.

Really?

8.6.22 SITUATION B: B2 hits a grounder to F6 whose throw to F3 is not in time to retire B2. However, B2, who has not been called out, leaves the baseline and heads for the dugout. RULING: B2 may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of B2 to be considered abandoning her effort to run the bases.

Mike (Irish) didn't like my use of the phrase "abandoning her effort to advance", but it is appropriate for NFHS.

Originally Posted by softball_junky View Post
"The runner didn't abandon the base, the runner never touched the base. You can't abandon a base you never occupied."

After reading mbcrowder post I removed this statement. I realized it didn't apply

The only two plays in the casebook on abandoning a base the runner made the base they were attempting and only one of them where the runner left the field. There is not one I can find where the runner is forced to the next base and never touching it.

In 8-4-2: A runner forfeits exemption from liability and may be put out when the ball is in play or on awarded bases, the runner fails to touch a base before attempting to make the next base.

This doesn't cover the issue either.