Ending Game

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So, what do you do when R3 goes directly to the dugout and F4 is standing on 2B with the ball appealing the missed base?

It wasn't a missed base; it was failure to advance. So, call the runner out for failure to advance. Now, find the rule that removes the run from the board.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Note: This is speaking ASA based on comment about what ASA teaches.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

How can it be a missed base - to miss a base, you have to pass it without hitting it.

Citations please. But for the sake of argument, say the player was already heading that way and just ran passed on the way to the 3B dugout. Is there also a rule which dictates how close a runner must come to this base for it to be missed? Think about that statement. If a runner goes directly from 3B to 1B on a caught fly ball, are you not allowing the appeal at 2B because the runner did not physically pass the base?

If you are calling this a missed base in THIS case, are you implying that you would not call the out for abandoning the basepaths if this happened in the middle of the game when R1's run didn't appear to end the game? No - BU would rule that runner out for ABANDONMENT (Yes, it's usually a crutch, but for once it's the proper ruling) when they entered the dugout. You can't call it abandonment in one case, but insist on an appeal for a missed base in another.

I didn't state that I insisted on an appeal, did I?

My question was based on your statement that ASA teaches that only the BR and scoring runner is the concern. I've never heard such a thing. The importance of the scoring runner is obvious. But why wouldn't all other runners carry the same importance whether BR, R2 or R3?

I ask again ... by what rule are you disallowing this run?

Where did I state that I was?

Originally Posted by Dakota

It wasn't a missed base; it was failure to advance. So, call the runner out for failure to advance.

How do you know it wasn't a missed base? Cite the definition of a "missed base". And please cite the rule where it states a runner is out for failing to advance?

Now, find the rule that removes the run from the board

If necessary, I will

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How do you know it wasn't a missed base? Cite the definition of a "missed base". And please cite the rule where it states a runner is out for failing to advance?

So, playing word games, are we? Since this has morphed into an ASA discussion, I guess rule 8-7U is superfluous, and such infractions must be appealed?

Fine whatever. Honor the appeal, now...

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If necessary, I will

... go ahead.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

My question was based on your statement that ASA teaches that only the BR and scoring runner is the concern. I've never heard such a thing. The importance of the scoring runner is obvious. But why wouldn't all other runners carry the same importance whether BR, R2 or R3?

Too much semantics, doublespeak and answering a question with a question. But my answer to THIS question is because the rules SPECIFICALLY disallow a run if BR is called out for the 3rd out before reaching first base. They do not say this regarding R2 or R3.

A lot of us here consider that when you post something, that's it - it's the answer. So answer us here.

How, exactly, are you taking this run off the board? By what rule.

And if your answer is that you're claiming R3 "missed" 2nd base, are you saying you would not call this runner out without an appeal if she ran off the field during a situation that did not end the game?

[Dakota]

I would point out that the OP is an NFHS situation, and it has now come to also include ASA. NFHS does not require a runner who abandons her advance to actually enter DBT for the out; they require that the runner "abandons a base" OR "leaves the field of play". ASA uses AND instead of OR. NFHS has two case plays on abandoning a base. As I said earlier in this thread, in one case play the runner is out for "giving up" (quoting the ruling) and in the other the runner is out for "abandoning her effort to run the bases" (again, quoting the ruling).

But, as I also said, fine, rule her out on appeal. Where does the support come from to remove the run from the board? It was not the BR and it was not a force play. It was a base award.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

But, as I also said, fine, rule her out on appeal. Where does the support come from to remove the run from the board? It was not the BR and it was not a force play. It was a base award.

Not to take the other side, because I CLEARLY don't think this is a missed base appeal...

But a runner who is FORCED to leave first base due to the batter becoming a batter-runner is considered a forced base, even if it's an award. If someone makes a missed base appeal (a real one) on this runner on the base they are forced to go to, it WOULD nullify the run. Don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves, this is in the same sentence that says "or a batter-runner before she reaches first base" in nullifying a run.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, playing word games, are we?

You accuse me of word games, but I've yet to see a response to my questions?

Since this has morphed into an ASA discussion, I guess rule 8-7U is superfluous, and such infractions must be appealed?

I made no such statement and it is too late in the year for you to blame it on the cold weather.

[MD Longhorn]

Wow...

Three years ago when I was posting here all the time, you (and Atl Steve) were generally the guys who would give the definitive right answers when we really had a sticky one.

Now (and not just on this thread), it seems all you do is badger and dodge. If we're wrong on this situation, PLEASE tell us why. But this constant answering a question with a question and saying "I didn't say that" without clarifying where you were misunderstood is completely unhelpful. Most of us are here to learn, to share, and help each other (and badger the coaches and players of course ... and talk about beer!). I'm not sure what happened in the past 3 years, but the additions from you in the last 4 or 5 threads (well ... other than the beer one) have not helped any of us.

Sorry if I offended ... but I miss the helpful Mike.

[Dakota]

Yet, you've avoided answering the key question of this thread (as opposed to semantic questionis). Is the run voided? If so, by what rule?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dakota

yet, you've avoided answering the key question of this thread (as opposed to semantic questionis). Is the run voided? If so, by what rule?

+1

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not to take the other side, because I CLEARLY don't think this is a missed base appeal...

But a runner who is FORCED to leave first base due to the batter becoming a batter-runner is considered a forced base, even if it's an award. If someone makes a missed base appeal (a real one) on this runner on the base they are forced to go to, it WOULD nullify the run. Don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves, this is in the same sentence that says "or a batter-runner before she reaches first base" in nullifying a run.

Forced to advance, but there is no force out available at 2B. It is an awarded base, as NFHS Case Play 9.1.1-D makes clear, "RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Did anyone actually bother reading the words I typed? It certainly doesn’t seem like it.

I did not respond to the NFHS question because it was an NFHS question and I’m long past the HS season and haven’t had time to check the book.
Comments were made concerning ASA and that is to what I responded.

ASA has taught for years that only BR and R1 are relevant in this situation, regarding whether the run scores or not.

My question was why only those two?


How can it be a missed base - to miss a base, you have to pass it without hitting it.

Simply asked for citation of this using the example of a runner crossing the diamond going nowhere near 2B

It wasn't a missed base; it was failure to advance. So, call the runner out for failure to advance. Now, find the rule that removes the run from the board.

And once again, I asked for citation to which Tom responded:

So, playing word games, are we? Since this has morphed into an ASA discussion, I guess rule 8-7U is superfluous, and such infractions must be appealed?

I don’t know what “word” games to which you are referring. As I normally do, I cited the statements to which I am responding, but you seem to keep going back to the OP.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA has taught for years that only BR and R1 are relevant in this situation, regarding whether the run scores or not.

My question was why only those two?

I don't know WHY ... I didn't write the book. There is a rule that states a run can't score if an appeal on THAT RUNNER is successfully made for an out. That takes care of R1. There is a rule that states a run cannot score if the 3rd out is made on the BR before the BR reaches first - that takes care of BR. There are no such rules that apply to R2 or R3 in this situation that would nullify a run. WHY? Heck if I know.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How can it be a missed base - to miss a base, you have to pass it without hitting it.

Simply asked for citation of this using the example of a runner crossing the diamond going nowhere near 2B

I am not positive the term missed base is defined in the book, although I don't have it in front of me. However, in practice, missed base has to mean that you actually missed a base. You can't be called out for missing a base that you never tried to get to, can you? It's not missing a base. Regarding your example, I suppose one could make the argument both ways --- I suspect that very few would consider a runner running from first base directly to the dugout as "missing" 2nd base (or 3rd base for that matter). I can see a more interesting argument regarding R2 running past 3rd base on their way to the dugout... and honestly I'm not sure that's defined as one or the other either.

All I've asked of you is what rule you would site in order to disallow this run. Still have no answer there. I've answered yours.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

..I don’t know what “word” games to which you are referring. As I normally do, I cited the statements to which I am responding, but you seem to keep going back to the OP.

My responses up to that point were NFHS (as the OP requested), which words the abandonment rule slightly differently, hence, in the context of NFHS, word games.

However, since you want to talk only ASA, instead of counting angels on the head of a pin (missed base appeal, ruled out for abandonment), lets just assume R1 is ruled out for either of those - take your pick - where is the ASA rule, ruling, case play, or clinic notes that say you take the run off the board in the OP situation (BOB with bases loaded and 2 outs, walk-off situation)? You said you would cite the rule "if necessary." Well?

I have had to tip toe around the p**ing contest but this is what I've found so someone tell me is this correct or is there something else I am missing.

Dakota’s post is not quite the question that was posted. In Dakota’s post the runner made 2B and was tagged while off base. On page 70 in the NFHS case book 9.9.1 M.

In the last of the 7th. Inning, two outs. Score tied, bases loaded. B6 walks to force R1 home. B6 assumes the game is over fails to go to 1B and leaves the field. The ball is held at 1B. Ruling: B6 is out and the run does not score. (Rule 8.6.7 Exception b)

So B6 is out, run is nullified after the appeal?